The Massive Success of Socialism in Britain!!

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I am always hearing, particularly from Americans, that socialism has never worked, that it always decays into tyranny.


But they are wrong.


In 1945, in the wake of the 2nd World War, Britain elected a Socialist government. Not only did we not descend into tyranny but, at a time of huge economic depression, the country devastated by bombing and the demobbing of millions of troops, they managed to be hugely successful and brought in systems that lifted millions out of poverty, squalor and misery, made work safer and more lucrative, families secure, and made the country a far better place. They laid the groundwork for much of the best of what is in Britain today.


Britain did not decay into tyranny or set up Gulags. It did not descend into economic lassitude. Far from it. It flourished and prospered. It became fairer, more compassionate and a far better place to live. 


People forget how bad things were. At the turn of the 20th Century Britain was the greatest, wealthiest nation in the world yet its working people lived in squalor and misery. All that wealth had been siphoned off into the aristocrats and businessmen. Not much of it filtered down to ordinary people. The rich lived in their stately homes with servants while most people lived in slums and worked themselves into the ground in dangerous and foul conditions.


Only 1 child in every 270 went to secondary school.


There were 250 child deaths in every thousand.


Unemployment, death of the breadwinner and old age meant hunger, malnutrition, destitution and death was not uncommon. 


The workhouse was a dire place reserved for those at their wits end with nowhere to fall back to.


Wages were poor. Men worked long hours often in terrible conditions.


Most people could not afford a doctor, glasses or dentistry. Those who could not afford it merely suffered and died.


Every family knew of death and were used to burying their children.


Clement Atlee's socialist government turned all that around. They brought in a raft of great social changes that are still operating today and laid the groundwork for a fair society. They brought in the Welfare State. What a radical achievement. It was based on adequate income, adequate healthcare, adequate housing and adequate employment.


The Welfare State attacked the ills of society on many fronts.


The NHS was probably the jewel in the crown. It provided free healthcare, dentistry and glasses for every man woman and child - all for the payment of a small national Insurance payment.


When it came in millions queued to get glasses and have teeth out. It removed the fear of illness and children in postwar generations enjoyed vitamin supplements to make them healthier. What child from that generation can forget the spoon of cod liver oil and spoon of concentrated orange juice or the free bottle of milk at school each day? Rickets and scurvy were suddenly a thing of he past.


They did not stop there though. They brought in sickness benefit so that families did not starve. They brought in widow's pensions and old age pensions that saved hundreds of thousands from the workhouse, starvation and death.


They introduced national parks for the health of the nation.


They started slum clearances and council housing.


They raised the school leaving age and set about educating the nation so that ordinary children could achieve and prosper.


They nationalised the railways, coal, electricity, gas and communications. No longer would these utilities be run for profit for the wealthy. No longer would conditions be unsafe with regular terrible accidents.


They brought in legal redress so that the poor could be represented in courts and gain a fair hearing.


They were instrumental in setting up NATO so that Europe would no longer be plunged into war.


They were instrumental in setting up the United Nations so that war and human rights could be addressed across the world and conflicts avoided.


They worked with the unions to gain fair wages and better working conditions.

They made Britain a much better place for ordinary working people.


So next time that anybody tells you that socialism has never worked just tell them about Clement Atlee and the great British Socialist government and tell them that if it wasn't for the lies and propaganda of the establishment owned media we'd still have a socialist government and be a lot better off than we currently are.


I look forward to the next great socialist government under Jeremy Corbyn and another great set of achievements that will result in a fairer, more equitable country which works better for all of us.


opher goodwin Added Jul 6, 2018 - 1:38pm
Perhaps if the capitalists had stopped their destabilisation and military intervention every time a hint of socialism arises anywhere around the world we might now have a lot fairer world. Of course the wealthy capitalist establishment wouldn't want that would they? The peddle the propaganda to tell everyone that fairness is tyranny. It's a wonder the USA didn't bomb Britain back in 1945.
Dino Manalis Added Jul 6, 2018 - 1:54pm
 It's so successful many Britons come to America for health care needs and choose to live here to avoid high taxes.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 6, 2018 - 2:16pm
White Hair'd Added Jul 6, 2018 - 4:10pm
Tell us about the 48,000 excess and needless, premature deaths, last Winter, as many had to choose between eating, or heating their homes, all due to the high energy costs resulting from the great Socialist energy policies.
I know, I know, it's unfair to bring up last Winter, since most years, the excess deaths have only been running about 26,000.
Oh well, those old people are such a burden on the system. That's what death panels are for, I suppose. Why keep around the tools of the State when they can no longer produce?
White Hair'd Added Jul 6, 2018 - 4:13pm
opher sez- " It's a wonder the USA didn't bomb Britain back in 1945. "
Not to worry, there's still plenty of time.
Neil Lock Added Jul 6, 2018 - 4:36pm
Opher: In 1999, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown tried to declare my livelihood to be "illegal." They couldn't quite get away with that, but they made a bad law called "IR35" that took away my market and so destroyed my career. If they hadn't done that, I would have been able to save enough to retire comfortably a decade ago. As it is, I'm already 65, and I still have to work to keep myself a decent life.
I've called you "friend" elsewhere, Opher. But anyone that supports the labour party and socialism is my enemy, not my friend.
opher goodwin Added Jul 6, 2018 - 4:38pm
Ryan - you are a silly twat. Intelligence escapes you. I keep telling you to grow up but you never do. Silly boy. You're playing with the big boys now.
opher goodwin Added Jul 6, 2018 - 6:15pm
Heavens - I can't believe the stupidity I'm reading from you guys. Don't you ever read the post before responding? Do you just respond with an asinine knee-jerk every time you see the word socialism? I hardly know where to begin.
Firstly - the period of time I am referring to is 1945-52 with the Atlee socialist government. 
So Dino - your response is daft. We have had a Tory government for nine years now and they are, as usual, a disaster. They are far from socialist. So your comment is not appropriate. We have tons of Americans living in Briton to escape what goes on there. I bet there's more of yours here than ours there. But that is irrelevant and nothing to do with socialism. We get lots of Americans coming here for free health treatment. It's a bone of contention.
Next the repressed infant - on the brink of Sharia law? Yes the 4.8% of Muslims (most of whom do not want sharia law) are about to impose it on us. For heavens sake our kindergarten are brighter than you. All that pent up homosexual lust and rote religious learning has fucked your head.
Luther - once again guilty of not reading the post or understanding. The country is not presently socialist. It has had nine years of austerity caused by a Tory Conservative government. Because the Conservatives fuck up education and the health service every time they get in we have more deaths. There were 34,000 excess deaths in the winter. It is quite normal for there to be what are termed excess deaths in winter because the cold causes respiratory disease. The same will be true for the States. If we had a socialist government those deaths would be less. You make a strong case for socialism.
This 'death panel' you talk of is no such thing. Just as in the States doctors meet to discuss treatment and decide when to stop treatment. Unlike you though we do not withhold treatment because the patient doesn't have the money or insurance to pay for it. How many million are uninsured in the States?
And lastly - I wouldn't put it past the States to bomb us. They're keen on bombing people. It's not too late.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 6, 2018 - 7:00pm
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  "How dreadful it is when right judge judges wrong", Sophocles, Antigone
Ryan Messano Added Jul 6, 2018 - 7:47pm
Alright children, let's be quiet and sit at our desks.
Badlose, settle down, I have a special assignment for you. 
Learn about the five stages of Islam, and report back to the class.
Also, teach us about how Islam is the biggest death machine in history.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Jul 6, 2018 - 10:03pm
When I think of success Britain never comes to mind. 
Bill H. Added Jul 6, 2018 - 11:07pm
Many aspects of real socialism would and do work in the US.
We actually need a taste more to keep our system from crashing bigtime.
Problem is that the word scares those who have no idea what real socialism is. Many relate it to communism, which would not work.
EXPAT Added Jul 6, 2018 - 11:09pm
opher doofus.
Heavens - I can't believe the stupidity I'm reading from you guys. Don't you ever read the post before responding? Do you just respond with an asinine knee-jerk every time you see the word socialism? I hardly know where to begin.
This poor fool lives in fantasy land.
rel="noopener">British socialism is dying and recent events show it - The ...rel="noopener">Your browser indicates if you've visited this link
British socialism is dying and recent events ... I've written about the decline in socialist action on ... ' and the 'Communist Party of Great Britain ...


rel="noopener">The Rise and Decline of Socialism in Great Britain | Foreign ...rel="noopener">Your browser indicates if you've visited this link
A much needed account of the English socialist movement from 1884 to 1924.


rel="noopener">The Decline of Britain's Socialist Realism - Pogledaj.torel="noopener">Your browser indicates if you've visited this link
The Decline of Britain's Socialist Realism ... As one of the biggest examples of welfare construction in Great Britain, ...


EXPAT Added Jul 6, 2018 - 11:16pm
I meet with many British tourists everyday! None are happy with what their country has become! Crime has become epidemic in London, and they are even trying to outlaw knives!
opher is the only Brit who is happy with the current government. Watch some of the Brexit hearings, and see what I mean!
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 3:32am
Jeffry - really? The greatest Empire in the history of the planet and it bypassed you?
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 3:36am
Bill - you can already see from this thread that the very word sets off a series of trigger reactions that prevent the brain being engaged.
What is quite clear is that America needs an antidote to the excessive capitalism it suffers from if it is going to avoid imploding. At the moment the inequality is obscene and a large segment of the population is feeling desperate while a tiny minority are creaming it in big-time.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 3:43am
Expat - for heavens sake. Read the fucking article. Understand a little about the fucking state of affairs in Britain before opening your mouth. I repeat for the hard of understanding - The article was about the Atlee socialist government of 1945-52 which achieved so much. A government that proved beyond doubt that socialism works.
The present government under Theresa May is a bastard Tory Government - the equivalent of Republican. They have been in power for 9 years and are a bunch of complete bastards, idiots and pompous nincompoops. I hate everything about the stupid fuckers. They are as far away from socialism as you can get. No wonder all the people you talk to hate them. They are an abomination who are fucking up education, health, social services, police and courts, defence and Brexit. I can't think of a single thing they've got right.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 3:44am
Child - still in the kindergarten I see - now trying to set homework. Twerp.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:28am
Luther - I can't believe you are asking me that. The fascist tactics were to scapegoat people - like the Nazis did with the Jews. Trump's use of language against Muslims (from shithole countries), banning, scaremongering about terrorism and Hispanics - rapists, criminals, workshy, gangs swamping the country. All this scaremongering about Europe being lost, Sharia law. It's all part of it.
Europe isn't lost. Britain's 4.8% of Muslims are not about to take over and bring in Sharia law. It is all scapegoating, fearmongering and hate arousing - Nazi tactics.
It is so obvious.
The image you have of Britain is entirely false. I live in the North with hardly a Muslim in sight. One of my sons lives in London - no knife crime evident and a vibrant multicultural atmosphere.
Come and visit you'd soon get a different picture.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:32am
Neil - I'm sure your bad experience under New Labour has totally clouded your view. I'd like to hear more about how that came about BTW.
But I'd hardly call New Labour under Blair socialism. It was Thatcherism Mark 2. We are kicking that into the long grass and getting back to a real caring socialism with policies that make sense and are good for everyone. I look forward to a second burst of successful socialism like we had under Atlee.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:39am
Thanks for that. But it won't change the ideologized minds.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:41am
Socialism as a political science is what the modern age will be forced to accept. Like it or not we are getting robots and only a small number of people will have to work. AI will take over many thinking jobs.
The illuminati-satanist version of socialism is meant to kill, even if it feels good in the short term.
Pure capitalism would be as bad as pure socialism.
Socialism can be constructed under the common law.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:46am
BTW: Dont try to explain the REAL meaning of socialism to a US citizen. He won't understand it. McCarthy did a thorough job there. He won't even try to figure out what social democracy is. Howdy Partner haaa ya ? LOL
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:48am
The problem of the UK is that "special relationship". You know what I mean.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:48am
Stone - just look at the knee-jerk reaction as soon as you mention socialism. They don't even bother to read it!
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:52am
Yep. I know. Maybe there's too many letters to it. But then the bible has many of them too ;))
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:52am
Doug - you are right about AI. There will not be the jobs for that surplus population. If we do not have a socialist distribution of wealth we will end up with a tiny number owning the world and billions starving. They will be surplus to requirements.
Socialism would bring in fairness and ensure everyone had a reasonable quality of life - not just the few. Sooner or later people will wake up to that. Runaway capitalism is a monster eating the planet. It has to be restrained.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:53am
Stone - and some fell on stony ground.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:55am
History shows that socially oriented politics gain weight the poorer the population becomes. Quite logical. But that stops as soon as majority starts to be better off. Then....egoism and "capitalism" come back.
Wealth produces egoism, poverty produces solidarity.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 7:18am
Stone - sounds like a recipe for living in a poor country! I don't like the avarice, greed, selfishness and arrogance.
White Hair'd Added Jul 7, 2018 - 7:23am
Nah, I didn't read your article. I read the first part, sort of. You don't read what I write, either.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 7:27am
Those "poor" countries might be poor in materialistic terms, but concerning social life they're rich.
And that's what I prefer. I can't take a car or an iShit in my final box ;)
Leroy Added Jul 7, 2018 - 7:47am
There's an interesting article out on the UK today.  It makes the case that the UK is a police state today.  It claims Britain was much safer under laissez-faire capitalism.  So much for socialism.  Here's the summary of the article:
This article will demonstrate how the United Kingdom has steadily become a police state over the past twenty years, weaponizing its institutions against the people and employing Orwellian techniques to stop the public from seeing the truth. It will demonstrate, contrary to official narratives, that both overall levels of crime and violent crime have been increasing, not decreasing, as the size of the state in the UK has gotten bigger. It will also expose how the Labour government under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown from 1997 to 2010, deliberately obscured real crime data with estimated crime rates based on survey data as opposed to the real numbers. I will demonstrate that, contrary to popular opinion perpetuated by progressive myths, life was much safer in Britain during the era of classical laissez-faire from the 1850s to 1911.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 8:26am
Brown or Bliar were as much socialist as Trump is a progressive.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 8:30am
BTW: Leroy, we have much less data from this era. But basically "laissez faire" means let them do what they want (the capital). And human nature IS egoistic. Look at today: The middle class is dwindling, lower class is growing, and the top doesn't know anymore how to spend....
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 8:34am
It's a natural psychological thing. When YOU belong to a well-off class you will damn any social development because YOU will have to pay for it. When you're in the  bottom class you will fight FOR social measures. And....who knows...when the bottom class becomes wealthier......;)
Stephen Hunter Added Jul 7, 2018 - 9:05am
Good article Opher with some very good points to think about. 
Maybe we can change the name of Socialism as it tends to rile up emotions.
And have you folks in Britain had any issues with George Soros, the leader of the Communist takeover of the world? And who some say is now teaming up with the Islamic people in this quest. Which is why many Americans need to keep themselves armed to the teeth. 
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 9:11am
Luther - I read. What is the point of commenting if you don't read and get the wrong end of the stick?
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 9:12am
Stone - you're right! Much better to have congenial people than possessions.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 9:16am
Leroy - once again. Please read the article before commenting.
a. The socialism I was referring to was the Atlee government 1945-52
b. Today we are ruled by the Tory Conservatives (Equivalent of the Republican) - they are not socialist (quite the opposite) and have been in power for nine years.
While the Tories, like the Republicans, are a bloody menace they have not created a police state. That is just more silliness.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 9:18am
Too true Stone. We haven't had real socialism for a long while. The watered down Tory of New Labour was the only way they could get elected in the face of the Tory establishment propaganda machine - same as in the States. Anything resembling antiestablishment is undermined and destroyed as we are seeing viv a vis Corbyn.
Bill Kamps Added Jul 7, 2018 - 9:18am
opher, a lot depends on what is meant by the definition of Socialist.
Which you conveniently failed to define. 
This is the dictionary definition of socialism
a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
This is not how it works in the UK, to the best of my knowledge.
I would suggest that the UK is only slightly more Socialist that the USA.  Primarily around health care.  The state does not own the means of production, for example.  In fact it's businesses are financed in similar way to the US, with a stock market and private capital system. 
Having a government health care system does on it's own make the  UK an example of socialism.  Having a political party that call themselves Socialists, does not make it so.
So how exactly do you define Socialism, and why is the  UK so much more Socialist than the US? 
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 9:20am
Stephen - thanks Stephen. Yes it does create a mindless knee-jerk reaction with Americans. Perhaps if we called it the antiestablishment party it might carry more weight, the part of fairness, the people's party.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 9:21am
Stephen - I don't know too much about Soros.
Leroy Added Jul 7, 2018 - 9:22am
Stoney, lassiez-faire means, according to Merriam-Webster, is "a doctrine opposing governmental interference in economic affairs beyond the minimum necessary for the maintenance of peace and property rights."  It doesn't mean doing whatever you want to do.
With minimum regulations, there is nothing to manipulate.  It's an even playing field.  When there are many regulations, that is where big business and government combine to the detriment of smaller businesses and individuals.  They set up barriers to entry.  The licensing of realtors and hairdressers are examples.   Smaller businesses and individuals must comply with all regulations.  For them, it is relatively expensive.  Big business is in cohoots with the government, which can establish loopholes for big business.  Big government can regulate the amount of chemicals in water, for instance, absolving big businesses of responsibility if they meet the standard.  Big business, like my previous employer, worked with the government to establish regulations that smaller competitors couldn't meet.  It is only when there is a myriad of regulations under socialism that the rich get unduly enriched.  It should be quite obvious in the above linked article.
Leroy Added Jul 7, 2018 - 9:26am
The moral of Opher's story is that the "massive success" of socialism is due to the massive lies it tells to its citizens.  The citizens of the UK are well gas lit.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 9:32am
Leroy - really. That is silly.
The massive success of socialism was the great strides it made in providing a huge set of services that lifted millions out of poverty, fear and misery. 
It is a great shame we haven't had a socialist government for a long time. When Corbyn gets in we'll build a better country again.
Leroy Added Jul 7, 2018 - 9:52am
So, Opher, you won't admit that the UK fakes the crime statistics?
Leroy Added Jul 7, 2018 - 9:58am
"Leroy - once again. Please read the article before commenting."
Classic defensive move.  Don't like the message, destroy the messenger.  Invalidate anything he says.  "Oh. You didn't read the article.  You don't have anything valid to say."  Yes. Opher.  I read your article in its entirety.  Please try another way to invalidate my comments.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 10:00am
That's correct, Leroy, Opher is one big deluded government bureaucrat.  He has the hide of a rhinoceros, and gets indignant when the facts are presented to him.  Watch him in action.  A despicable character is Badlose.  He only survives because we have so many others like him.  Michka, Stone, Bill H., Flying J, Travil, are a few of the other reprobates on here. 
Leroy Added Jul 7, 2018 - 10:07am
Actually, I agree with what Bill Kamps had to say but with a little more nuance.  I define fascism as nominal private property with de facto government control.  Fascism is one of many variants of socialism.  With its crony capitalism today, the US tends towards fascism.  That transition occurred well before Trump, BTW.  The UK is just a little left of the US, a little more fascist. 
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 10:59am
Leroy - well if you have read the article about the Atlee government you have either missed the point or being blatantly silly. How are any crime figures based on a Tory government relevant?
BTW - the Tories have a habit of trying to fake things but they always get caught out.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 11:00am
Leroy FFS the socialist government was in 1945-52!! Not anything relating to now!! Don't you get it? I thought you'd read it?
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 11:01am
Now you've let the child speak without putting his hand up! Silly boy. He never makes sense.
White Hair'd Added Jul 7, 2018 - 11:08am
@ opher-
I read your article, enough of it to comment. Must have read the whole thing, I guess. Mostly, telling you I didn't, was an act of poking you in the ribs with a stick. You claim that you were only praising the post war (socialist) efforts of your government, way back then. That's hardly the case, now is it? You still exhibit a tendency to ignore whatever is said, which doesn't fit with your beliefs. Blind is as blind does.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 11:15am
I give you two weeks, Badlose.  By that time you'll be out of your mind, and off WB.  You liberals can't cope with the truth. 
I wish you could have met our friend Marilyn French.  She was actually smarter than you, and she got toasted. It won't be pretty for you, my friend.  The big guns haven't started attacking you yet, but when they get started, your piffle will be blasted to smithereens, as it richly deserves. 
Leroy Added Jul 7, 2018 - 11:25am
Yes.  "Marilyn" was a piece of  She and the supposedly European Canadian "Speaker of the Truth" both made a hasty exit after boasting about how bad Trump would be defeated and how the GOP was finished.  The white man might as well pack up and leave.  Ha, ha, ha...ROTFLOL!  I suspect both of them are still lurking here waiting for Trump to screw up so they can say, "I told you so!"  I don't think I ever saw anyone so ruthlessly attack others with whom she disagreed, going as far as trying to get them fired.  SOT reported people to the FBI.  Maybe that is how it all started.
Katharine Otto Added Jul 7, 2018 - 11:25am
I don't have enough background to refute anything you say, except to ask why the socialism didn't last.  If it had truly worked, wouldn't Britain still have it?
Rather than use general terms that have become (to me) meaningless from overuse, I would like to look at individual methods that worked in various cultures, no matter what the official government philosophy was.  For instance, the nationalized railroads might be a good idea.  In the US, the highway system is owned by the public sector, but not the railroad tracks, even though public money and land grants helped the "robber barons" build them and profit from railroad stocks, too.  The US lost a lot when it lost passenger rail to private interests disguised as nationalization under Amtrak. 
Anyway, your post is interesting and thought-provoking.  While you and I have different beliefs about the purity of government motives, I do think it's possible to have good government that is truly accountable to the people.  The people just have to wake up and pay attention.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 11:32am
LOL, Leroy, I remember "Speaker of Truth".  That communist was a real piece of work.  He actually reported me to the FBI as being a threat to his grandchildren, who I have no idea who they are or where they live, much less ever thought of deliberately harming another human.  LOL.  I wonder how the FBI keeps up with all the stupid calls from liberals reporting imaginary threats, while liberals themselves are the biggest threats imaginable to America. 
Make no mistake about it, liberals are dangerous animals, and they constantly plot to destroy and overcome anyone who disagrees with them. 
Marilyn tried to get me fired and SOT reported me to the authorities.  Typical liberal behavior. Their fellow liberal sheep on here will mindlessly cheer and congratulate them for their 'brave' actions. 
Doug Plumb Added Jul 7, 2018 - 11:37am
Opher, much of the change you attribute to socialism is in reality better attributed to the development of science.
Leroy Added Jul 7, 2018 - 11:59am
It's funny, Ryan, how the liberals blame everyone else for the discord, yet it is they who are the most belligerent.  I hope Autumn carves out a safe space for them on her new and improved website so their feeling aren't hurt.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:16pm
This article, Henry Makow, explains what is really wrong with the left, in human terms, from a former Lefty. Henry is excellent reading especially for WB people. His is a master of the 800 word essay, which is what we are all trying to be.
Doug Plumb Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:17pm
Leroy - a little icon of a coloring book should be the link.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:23pm
Luther - In 1945, in the wake of the 2nd World War, Britain elected a Socialist government.
I think that's a bit of a give away, don't you?
So next time that anybody tells you that socialism has never worked just tell them about Clement Atlee and the great British Socialist government
I think that was clear enough. I was talking about our great socialist government that did so much for our country. I think the trouble is that firstly Americans tend to lose it at the mention of socialism (they just can't believe that it can possibly be successful) and secondly they do not engage with the article but rather spout their prepared position.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:24pm
Oh Kindergarten's out. The lying repressed homosexual is on the streets. Look out everybody - low lying stupidity on the lose!!
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:34pm
Katharine - the reason it didn't last was twofold really. Firstly Britain was bust and broken after the war. The cities were in ruins, we were broke (America had taken us for every cent), our economy was shot and on a war footing (we'd been fighting for our lives), there was rationing, our empire was falling apart as they realised we were on the ropes and did not have the resources to deal with it, and people had such high expectations that they wanted the government to put it right overnight. They couldn't they did not have the resources. Secondly the government literally wore itself out trying to do everything - get people back to work, find accommodation for the bombed out, demob two million troops, rebuild cities, bring in massive new visions such as the NHS and Welfare. They worse themselves into the ground and the establishment media worked on it. Churchill seized his moment. He had huge esteem from the war and told everyone he could get the place back on its feet quicker. Of course he couldn't.
But socialism had been a huge success and left us with a great legacy. We had another go at it in the sixties but the media and establishment undermine and withdraw capital. They make it hard.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:35pm
No, Kindergarten is still in session, and Badlose was never taught never to lie, and is now filling the atmosphere with his poisonous smokescreen of lies and slander. 
If we had a dollar for every lie you degenerate liberals have told on WB, we'd be millionaires. 
When you liberals are demolished in an intellectual debate, you get spiteful, go into your corner, and go take your liberal atom bomb, which is to call your opponent the nasty most vile terms you can think of, and accuse them of engaging in filthy behavior. 
It's psychological terrorist, and Badlose, you are a Psychological terrorist. 
I'm immune to your type.  I've endured thousands of similar charges, and am quite used to being lied about by you liberals. I'm kind of surprised when you don't do it. 
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:35pm
It's alright Ryan I won't use my power as an ex-headteacher to have you put out of kindergarten.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:37pm
That you were ever given the power to teach a child is an astonishing lesson in how dysfunctional a system we have. 
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:37pm
Doug - no - the NHS, Welfare system and nationalisation programme, the working with unions of wages and health and safety has bugger all to do with developments in science. They were highly successful socialist policy that worked and has left us with a cherished legacy.
White Hair'd Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:40pm
Yes, opher " I was talking about our great socialist government that did so much for our country. "
You made that clear. I made clear that I understood what you were doing, which was erecting a billboard on your road to socialist utopia.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:41pm
I wouldn't bet on Corbyn. I never bet on any politician. Take Joschka Fischer. He presented himself as a green peace rebel and after some years he was the biggest defender of NATO attack wars.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:42pm
Leroy - my feelings aren't hurt. I don't need protection thanks. It does get a bit tiresome when people can't engage intelligently or follow a post though and it is annoying to have to deal with the silly whining of the brainwashed brat but he's hilarious too. I feel sorry for him and his austere bible-bashing background that's left him with such a pointless little existence living in terror of his own prick. But hey - he's entertainment. Intelligence is the name of this game Leroy. Step up to the plate.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:43pm
Find a new home. You don't fit in here yet. Maybe in some years given you're allowed to grow some additional brain cells and after your parents taught you some manners. Respect. A new word to learn.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:46pm
Doug - Well I clicked on the link and all I got was a rather silly article on Taylor Caldwell claiming some ludicrous stupidity about America being under communist control. I think you put up the wrong link. There was no intelligent article or writing to be found. Can you put up the right one. I'll have a look.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:52pm
Gravel Mouth,
You fit in only with the flock of degenerates on here.  Notice none of the conservative intellects gives  you the time of day.  If it weren't for your merry band of 12 degenerate liberals you'd have no audience or likes, and then you'd leave. 
That anyone gives you any attention or commendation is a reflection of how corrupt and uninformed our society is. 
If you want respect, then learn to act and think respectably.  Truth sounds like hate to you because you love to practice and tell lies.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:53pm
I said.....McCarthy still lives on. People like to have an enemy. Even if it's one which doesn't exist...hmmm....LOL
Leroy Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:55pm
"Firstly Britain was bust and broken after the war. The cities were in ruins, we were broke (America had taken us for every cent)..."
Oh. Opher.  Please don't try to gaslight us.  The war effort was "free" to Britain and put on the backs of the American taxpayer--literally and figuratively.  The US graciously made loans under favorable terms to rebuild the mess after WWII.  Why would you expect the US to give the UK money to rebuild?  It was Chamberlains of the world who caused the mess.  But no, it is a lie to say America had taken Britain for every cent.  Are all Brits that ungrateful?  Funny thing.  When I worked in France, I was in an open office of about twenty people.  Only one in twenty admitted to US effort to liberate Europe and France in particular.  I guess it is a European thing.  Most Americans are just ignorant of France's assistance during the American Revolution.  It never occurs to them to ask why there are so many French names around such as Lafayette.  Hell, they don't even know who we fought against.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 12:59pm
Dear Limestone Mouth,
McCarthy was actually completely right. 
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 1:13pm
You're a kid. You have no idea. You read and cite. Get some life experience which is larger than Internet and your home town.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 1:15pm
...and remember: Ignorance mixed with childishness and arrogance are not a tasty cocktail.
Leroy Added Jul 7, 2018 - 1:17pm
"Find a new home. You don't fit in here yet."
Case in point.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 1:19pm
Above has been confirmed by checking that link. Hilarious LOL
USA today or the "Sun" are in the same league....
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 1:30pm
Stoned: Ignorance mixed with childishness and arrogance are not a tasty cocktail. 
Congratulations, that is the biggest instance of the pot calling the kettle black we have ever seen on WB, which is saying a lot since Marilyn French, Mufasa, and Michka frequented or still frequent these pages. 
As I said before, there is nothing new, only the history you don't know. 
Sure enough, your latest attempts at insults are just repeats.  I love Pitt's retort to a similar one by another corrupt man 277 years ago.

THE ATROCIOUS 1 crime of being a young man, which the honorable gentleman has, with such spirit and decency, charged upon me, I shall neither attempt to palliate nor deny; but content myself with wishing that I may be one of those whose follies may cease with their youth, and not of that number who are ignorant in spite of experience. Whether youth can be imputed to any man as a reproach, I will not, sir, assume the province of determining; but surely age may become justly contemptible, if the opportunities which it brings have passed away without improvement and vice appears to prevail when the passions have subsided.

  The wretch, who, after having seen the consequences of a thousand errors, continues still to blunder, and whose age has only added obstinacy to stupidity, is surely the object of either abhorrence or contempt, and deserves not that his gray hairs should secure him from insult.

  Much more, sir, is he to be abhorred, who, as he has advanced in age has receded from virtue and become more wicked with less temptation

Ian Thorpe Added Jul 7, 2018 - 1:41pm
Stoney, I haven't time for politial debates today, we in Britain are concerned with more serious matters. We avenged your defeat by Sweden for you, now its time to
Ian Thorpe Added Jul 7, 2018 - 1:42pm
Stone, there should have been a pic in that comment, here's a link
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 2:00pm
No Ryan - no pot calling - I've watched your childish rants on video boy. It was pathetic. You should be too embarrassed to show your brainwashed little gay arse around grown men. You need to get a whole wealth of experience before you could be in the same room as men you silly little boy.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 2:01pm
Ian - Right on!!  Just off to watch and see who we are taking on next!! Boy that was some match!!
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 2:03pm
Leroy - no quite wrong. The Yanks sat out and sold arms and supplies and made a killing.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 2:40pm
No liberal would ever agree with true ideals, no matter if the greatest speakers in history said them.  Your censure is comforting.  You had one of the great orators in history, Churchill, and you despise him, so your despising me is an amazing compliment!  Thank you!
And then it’s on to your normal lies.
Can you inform us of your drug use?
Id be fascinated to learn who kind of drugs make you so impervious to reason.  
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 2:57pm
The child's imagination runs riot. I was too busy reading biographies of the founding fathers to take drugs plonker.
Leroy Added Jul 7, 2018 - 3:33pm
"Leroy - no quite wrong. The Yanks sat out and sold arms and supplies and made a killing."
Now I get to say it.  Did you read the article? 
"Equipment left over in Britain at the end of hostilities and still needed had to be paid for.
The US loaned $4.33bn (£2.2bn) to Britain in 1945, while Canada loaned US$1.19 bn (£607m) in 1946, at a rate of 2% annual interest."
It was after the war.  Although it doesn't say specifically that it was after the war, I think it was safe to say that the bulk of the war was not fought between January 1st and May 7th, 1945.  It is clear that the US wasn't sucking the British dry DURING the war and that the loan was for equipment that the British chose to keep after the war ended.  I can provide other links that may state it more clearly for you.
White Hair'd Added Jul 7, 2018 - 4:24pm
You may be wasting your breath. One seldom saw much of the type of denigration of the US and rewriting of history, that some Brits and Europeans are currently fond of, before the Berlin wall fell. Now, such talk is rampant and they will not be moved off of their beliefs, no matter how much evidence you supply them, to the contrary.  The politburo has had some rather astounding successes, these past 70 years, or so.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 4:24pm
Fascinating, Badlose, which particular biographies?  
I have a hard hard time believing anything you say as you are a prodigious liar, and you have a defiled imagination to boot.  
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 5:30pm
Leroy - not true.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 5:34pm
Child - your intellect is severely challenged. You just don't get it. I'm just going back to have another look at you ranting away like a little brat with ADHD. It is both extremely funny and pathetic.
I suggest that being locked away as a child and forced to study bible text along with the repression of your sexuality and lack of experience has left you severely traumatised. Brainwashing does that. There is counselling available though you might be terminal.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 5:53pm
What five biographies, Badlose? Put up, or shut up.   You are a degenerate charlatan libertine, and are unfit to be taken seriously.  Every one of the people who liked your post or agrees with your comments are similarly ignorant or corrupt. 
You liberals hate people like me, because we shut you the hell up, as you deserve to be.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 5:54pm
Also, please don't post anything else on WB unless you want to share your drug history, and what psychiatrists you've been to. I've never done any drugs nor have I ever been to a psychiatrist.  Know why?  Because I'm sane and my mind is working fine.  With you, it's clear you are unhinged.
White Hair'd Added Jul 7, 2018 - 5:55pm
opher said: "The Yanks sat out and sold arms and supplies and made a killing."
opher, If your assertions were true,  it should be fairly easy for you to back them up with links and discussion.
Otherwise, you are just spouting historically revisionist propaganda, which seems to me, to suit your biases, just fine.
Yes, I'm calling you out. Back up your words with evidence.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:06pm
The child is a stupid bossy parrot isn't he? Go play little boy. You have delusions of grandeur. I think your brains have drowned in spunk.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:10pm
Delete that asshole. He ruins your thread.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:11pm
Here you go Luther -
Details of the Lend/Lease scheme that put us in hock to the US. Not hard to find. You should try using your computer. We finally paid it off in 2006. It used to be a big thing with my Mum before she died. She thought it was obscenely immoral.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:12pm
And Gravel Eater, the secret totalitarian, reveals his true colors. 
Stone-Eater Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:14pm
If ever you'd cross my way I'd turn you into a vegetable. Get that ? Period.
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:17pm
Stone - I find him amusing and I'm enjoying it. He really does make a total arsehole of himself and he doesn't even seem to see it. Even his right-wing buddies are too embarrassed to join in.
He's one severely fucked up dude. He's great fodder for one of my more satirical novels. I'm making notes. It's hilarious. My character is so full of spunk he finally explodes.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:29pm
Here in America, Gravel Eater, we have the 2nd Amendment. 
When leftist degenerates like you interfere with our First Amendment, we first use the courts, and then we rely on the 2nd Amendment.  Unlike you liberal pansies, we conservatives know how to use guns. 
Keep flattering yourself, Badlose. 
All of us rightwingers have seen this happen before.  We've seen plenty of your type get destroyed.  Go look up the person with the most likes on WB since it's inception.  He and I tangled, and he got the worst of it, and left WB, never to return.  That's where you are headed.  Don't say you weren't warned.  You can't hang.  You are badly intellectually outclassed, and there is nothing your position, degrees, or liberal friends can do for you.  Mano a mano, I will take you out, 24/7.  Got that, pipsqueak?
opher goodwin Added Jul 7, 2018 - 6:54pm
Hey Fuck off child!  You're not in the playground now. Intellectually outclassed by a brainwashed drop-out prone to having hissy fits and tantrums. Your delusion is getting worse. Go buy yourself an inflatable male doll with lubricated parts. That'll make you feel better.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 7, 2018 - 7:04pm
Sad.  Fancies himself an intellect, but throws F-bombs when he gets mad. 
And you are a corrupt libertine.  You white liberal males will go to your graves, and be forgotten.    Your graves will be spit on, and your memories abhorred. 
White Hair'd Added Jul 7, 2018 - 7:12pm
opher- You have provided no information, nothing to back up your earlier statement. The only material which Britain paid for under Lend/Lease, was for materials kept after the war was over, with which they  outfitted their military and for deliveries of new goods after the war in Europe, until the Japanese surrender.
Britain was charged @rate $.10/$1 delivered goods under that Lend/Lease program. That's one helluva discount. All the materials delivered to Britain during the war were gratis, at US expense.
Now, square those facts with your prior assertions, or is it that in your socialist utopia world, the US should have kept supplying the British, for free until...?
White Hair'd Added Jul 7, 2018 - 7:36pm
By the way, opher, in response to yours, here's a little anecdote for you, from this side of the pond, courtesy of my Dear late Uncle.
My Uncle was a US Navy signalman, assigned duty aboard the deadly merchant freighters, supplying your country throughout the war.
Every single transit he made, every last one of them, was aboard either a tanker, or an ammunition ship. Do I have to tell you what the wolfpacks made of that lot? My Uncle lived the rest of his life in torment from those days.
Do you know what my Uncle's only real memory of England was?
He and a buddy made Liberty in some English port and entered a pub, where they found themselves sorely outnumbered and set upon by a bunch of British sailors, cursing the damn Yanks while they beat them to a pulp.
Just in case you ever need our help again, we'll probably throw in again at some point, after we out vote those who remember how you people appreciated our help the last two times around and overcome how we see how you lie about it now, as well.
There was a reason the people over here were not inclined to rush right back, in WWII to pull your ungrateful fat out of the fire, again.
And you are the poster boy for their feelings.
Leroy Added Jul 7, 2018 - 7:43pm
Opher, do you bother to read the links you post?  It is not a particularly good link, but, it does say:
"Instead, the United States would “lend” the supplies to the British, deferring payment. When payment eventually did take place, the emphasis would not be on payment in dollars."
It should be at least clear to you that the US did not bleed the British dry during the war.
The Wikipedia link is a little clearer on that account.  I am sure there are better links.
"In practice, very little was returned except for a few unarmed transport ships. Surplus military equipment was of no value in peacetime. The Lend-Lease agreements with 30 countries provided for repayment not in terms of money or returned goods, but in "joint action directed towards the creation of a liberalized international economic order in the postwar world." That is the U.S, would be "repaid" when the recipient fought the common enemy and joined the world trade and diplomatic agencies, such as the United Nations."
Luther summed it well for the equipment that Britain chose to keep after the war.
Prior to the lend-lease program and the US involvement in the war, there may have been payments.  Wikipedia indicates that Russia sent the US 4.5 tons of gold.  The bulk of the war was fought under the lend-lease program.
"We finally paid it off in 2006. It used to be a big thing with my Mum before she died. She thought it was obscenely immoral."
May your dear mother rest in peace, Opher.  I surely hope that she wasn't a school teacher.
EXPAT Added Jul 7, 2018 - 8:01pm
I confess to not realizing you were stuck in the 50's, before the collapse of your Liberal Paradise! I see the MESS that your socialist paradise has become TODAY, and can only hope they find a Trump to lead them out of it. May I suggest that Nigel Farge, may be that man.
The Progressive hatred of the people who founded  Great Britain, may be even greater than in USA for their founders? WTF
Leroy Added Jul 7, 2018 - 8:18pm
Nigel Farge always seemed to be a nut job to me.  Maybe a good American like Boris Johnson could lead them.
Flying Junior Added Jul 8, 2018 - 1:14am
The fuck EXPAT.
Life in the U.S.A. is not that bad.  It's fucking beautiful just as it always was.  There will ever be growing pains.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 8, 2018 - 3:00am
Really, you impress me. What a tough guy LOL
opher goodwin Added Jul 8, 2018 - 4:06am
Luther - well I'm sorry to hear that your father was beaten up. I'm afraid the yanks got a very bad image in Britain. While our men were away fighting the war they were out chasing their women, bribing them with nylons and all manner of goods that were unavailable in Britain due to the rationing. It caused a lot of bad feeling.
If it's any consolation my dad also got beaten up a number of times. There was great rivalry between army, navy and airforce. There were always fights. There were a lot of low-lives in the forces. They liked to fight.
My Dad was only seventeen when he joined up and went off to fight like my Granddad had done in the one before. Neither of them talked much about the horrors they saw. I think anybody who is involved with war is traumatised by it.
There were a lot of brave men who risked their lives in the war. There's a big debt owed to them all.
Just think, if the US had come in, like Britain did, to support their allies in the beginning it might not have come to that. Hitler, Franco and Mussolini could have been knocked into a coked hat before it came to that. 
Never mind. I think you don't understand about the lend/lease arrangement.
opher goodwin Added Jul 8, 2018 - 4:10am
Leroy - the Lend/Lease scheme was a way round arming Britain.
My Mum was a secretary who worked with Churchill in Whitehall in the bunker and was privy to all the secrets of how the war was being run. She typed up all the orders and communiques. No she wasn't a teacher though she would have made a great one.
opher goodwin Added Jul 8, 2018 - 4:21am
Expat - no - I was merely focussing on one particularly glorious period in British history where great strides were made in making life and the country a lot better. We have had other periods of socialism which have worked very well too. I chose that one because it was a very pure socialism. I did that in response to all the American bleating I get about socialism never having worked. This was a good and clear example of it working brilliantly.
Of course Labour did gain power a number of times after but never with the same socialist purity. They had to dilute it down because the media and money markets undermined them and prevented them being effective.
The Tony Blair/Brown socialist government (which lasted 3 terms and thirteen years) was the only time the British economy has actually been in the black. I bet the Americans would lot to achieve that wet dream.
If it hadn't been for the economic crash we might still be enjoying a Labour government instead of this bunch of greedy Tory (Republican) numbskulls we've had for the last nine years.
opher goodwin Added Jul 8, 2018 - 4:22am
Expat/Leroy - Nigel Farage is a self-serving pillock of the first order and a total embarrassment. I apologise for him unreservedly.
opher goodwin Added Jul 8, 2018 - 4:23am
Leroy - Boris Johnson is a clown and a buffoon. He was described last night by the editor of the Times as a man with hidden shallows. I thought that summed him up.
opher goodwin Added Jul 8, 2018 - 4:25am
FJ - I'm sure, that away from the crazy people, the USA is just as beautiful as it always was. I loved living there. But I love living in England more. It is not so crazy here. We don't have guns or as many lunatics.
opher goodwin Added Jul 8, 2018 - 4:28am
Stone - The child has certainly flipped. I think he's in danger of exploding. Must be all that pent-up semen. It's like he's on one perpetual rant like in those videos of him making a fool of himself. He's going to drive us off WB. I'm scared. I don't get attacked by children too often.
Leroy Added Jul 8, 2018 - 5:29am
"Boris Johnson is a clown and a buffoon. He was described last night by the editor of the Times as a man with hidden shallows. I thought that summed him up."
I was just joking about Boris Johnson.  Not many know that he was born in NYC.  I agree with you.  He seems to be another nutter.  Nigel Farge reminds me of Roger Stone, another whack job.
opher goodwin Added Jul 8, 2018 - 6:26am
Leroy - how do so many complete nincompoops get to the top in politics? They are so obviously nuts.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 8, 2018 - 6:28am
opher goodwin Added Jul 8, 2018 - 6:30am
They can bite you know - when they get in a paddy. They haven't learnt control.
Stone-Eater Added Jul 8, 2018 - 7:11am
WWII was a good method to boost US economy with the Marshall plan. Although Halliburton didn't exist yet LOL
opher goodwin Added Jul 8, 2018 - 10:19am
Stone - World War 1 & 2 transformed the USA and made it a superpower. They made a right killing.
White Hair'd Added Jul 8, 2018 - 1:21pm
opher sez- "Never mind. I think you don't understand about the lend/lease arrangement."
I understand Lend- Lease. It is you who do not understand it.   If you did understand it, you could offer proof to refute what I said, instead of the basic ad hom argument, which you just made, by way of refusal to look at the truth of things, which differ from your prejudices.
A. Jones Added Jul 8, 2018 - 5:25pm
Most of the trenchant criticisms of socialism in Britain that I've read have come from Brits themselves, not Americans. That especially includes Brits' massive unhappiness and dissatisfaction with socialized education, socialized healthcare, socialized unemployment benefits, and historically, the Atlee administration in general.
Regarding Atlee's moronic naivete regarding socialized medicine, that upper-class, elite fuckwit claimed to the war-weary public that socialized medicine wouldn't develop massive shortages and long queues of patients waiting for treatment because (get this!) he believed that once the initial deluge of those demanding healthcare were "Treated and cured of their ailments", everyone would be so happy and healthy that the costs of the system would plummet. Um, hello, Sir Twit! What about the fact that medical technology and knowledge themselves will be slowly advancing, able to treat new diseases, new conditions, as well as being able to offer new treatments and therapies for old, existing conditions . . . and that once you proclaim, "It's free! Come and get it!!!", everyone, understandably, is going to want them. No one's going to be happy being treated with old-fashioned Salvarsan for their syphilis when they could be getting the latest, powerful antibiotic; no one is going to be happy with their free, government wheelchair when they could be getting a new titanium hip replacement. I mean, DUH!! Atlee-the-schmuck never thought about that, despite the fact that the majority of economists warned him about the fuck-ups and bottlenecks that would occur . . . not to mention the immediate "brain drain" of physicians (especially specialists) that occurred once government took over healthcare.
What Atlee was counting on is what all politicians count on when offering "free" stuff to voters: he was counting on a large enough percentage of the population redirecting their efforts from self-reliance to their becoming dependent on government dole programs, thus ensuring a constant and reliable voting bloc for keeping the left in power. In general, his "give 'em free stuff and worry about the consequences later" worked . . . until the country began to go broke and fall apart. When that happens, of course, the left employs its Standard Operating Procedure by seeking out scapegoats on whom to blame the inevitable failure of its own policies.
Something we might point out regarding Goodwin's cherry-picking of only those things that appear benevolent under socialism while ignoring all of the many injurious unexpected consequences, is that the same kind of statement has been made by admirers of Russian communism ("It worked GREAT . . . if not for all of the anti-revolutionary traitors constantly trying to undo the good work of collectivization begun by Comrade Stalin!"), Chinese communism ("It worked GREAT! All those dumb peasants could finally go to a state school and study engineering while reciting bad poetry from Mao's Little Red Book . . . if not for the constantly chipping away of the noble collectivist goals of the Good Chairman in his visionary Great Leap Forward. So what if he murdered 70 million of his people! It was worth it because the ends justify the means . . . especially when it's our ends that we know are good for everyone whether they know it or like it."), Cuban communism ("It worked GREAT . . . until the U.S. embargoed its producers from giving us stuff that we desperately need. The nice thing about Cuba is that all people are equally poor and desperate so there's no more class warfare."), North Korean communism ("We are all equally poor and equally desperate and equally unhappy. Only the army, the secret police, party members, and Dear Leader lead lives of material wealth . . . but then, they deserve to do so because they ensure that the people's poverty and misery always remain equal.").
In sum, It's unsurprising that a bemused and confused leftist like Goodwin would simply deny that socialism in Britain has done great damage to its people (who are now PROUD to be receiving dole payments of one sort or another, whereas prior to socialism, living on government relief programs was viewed as somewhat shameful), as well as to its economy.
But, then, denial of reality is pretty much the defining characteristic of the left.
opher goodwin Added Jul 8, 2018 - 7:22pm
Luther - I can't be bothered. It's a waste of time.
opher goodwin Added Jul 8, 2018 - 7:25pm
Mr Jones. Good to hear from you. I thought you were dead. But that was just wishful thinking. I've missed your dulcet tones and monotonous predictability.
Leroy Added Jul 8, 2018 - 7:38pm
Well, Luther and A., you just sealed the debate.  Opher more or less conceded to both of you.  Congrats!
opher goodwin Added Jul 9, 2018 - 4:24am
Leroy - no - you misunderstood. The pointlessness of debating with people who are so entrenched in their misinformation that nothing makes an impression. That's why I can't be bothered. I've got better things to do - books to write, friends to hang out with, chores to do.
White Hair'd Added Jul 9, 2018 - 10:55am
opher- Do you not realize that you just underscored Leroy's point?
I suggest once again, that it is you  who exemplify "...people who are so entrenched in their misinformation that nothing makes an impression..."
You are so buried in it that you refuse to even look at the mountain of truth which looms over the valley of shadows in which you dig your holes and hurl your curses.
 You can only refute the information given to you with more of your politically corrupted hand waving.
There is no information which you can find to refute what I've said.
I suspect that you know this, making your claim of "too busy to look at evidence" into purposeful subterfuge.
The only one you are fooling is yourself.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 9, 2018 - 4:06pm
Uh, Oh.  You left your post, Avocado.  Now you have to play with the big boys.
What country are you from anyway?  Probably one of the hellholes in Latin America, I'm guessing.  The common people bow down to frauds like you, and you love it, and lead them right to destruction, with your fancy frippery, and high falutin' language.  I detest you intellectual frauds. 
The Free market works, the problem is that America's virtues were corrupted.  We are getting them back, and we don't need socialism.  Thanks but no thanks. 
I recommend you read Victor Davis Hanson.  He understands the history of socialism very well and repudiates it thoroughly.  Since you are enchanted with names and titles, Rufus Fears is another source that will teach you a thing or two. 
Your entire argument leaves out virtue, and it is human corruption that leads to the problems in capitalism.  Socialism will never work, and always leads to communism, and that filthy degenerate Marx. 
Why haven't you read five biographies of America's Founders, so you can comment on America's history, instead of being blown to smithereens by Americans with no college experience whatsoever.  The problem with your country is the people don't read.  That's a big problem here too.  You aren't used to someone with no title and no university education demolishing your arguments, and so you petulantly refuse to talk to them, like a little boy.  Well, put your big boy pants on and get used to it, Avocado, because you are going to see a lot more of it.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 9, 2018 - 4:46pm
Typical pretentious elite response.  Keep it up, you are alienating yourself nicely.
"I'm too good for you", yup, unfounded pride never won any debate ever.
Jeff Michka Added Jul 9, 2018 - 7:04pm
Yup, opher, Stone and several others here are "too good for you," Lyin Ryan.  Have some rough sex with your husband, Vinny.  You might "feel better."  And since you are busy chasing people off WB, have WBers flooded your stupid rightist "news" website loaded with stolen material for content?  Autumn may have welcomed you back to boost her numbers, but why do you think people will flock to get abused by you, Xtain dog.  Remember how you ran from a Muslim here because you couldn't prop up any of your hate comments with any facts, and turned the discussion over to another Xtain, Dawn Something.  Another mindless Xtain that was marginally more polite, but equally wrong.  You lost and she lost to a Muslim, remember.  Your hate shit is really weak, like you.  Put those legs together, we've got only one nail left, Lyin Ryan.
A. Jones Added Jul 9, 2018 - 8:17pm
 That's why I can't be bothered. I've got better things to do - books to write . . .
No, please, Opher; no more books. You've written too many already, and you truly are an atrocious writer. Moreover, you constantly post shitty, first drafts of your drivel and then slyly request WB contributors to "comment" on them, when in fact, you're interesting in having them do the writing for you.
Forget writing. Just hang out with your fellow communists and do some chores. I recommend you begin with throwing out all of your books and then taking out the garbage.
opher goodwin Added Jul 10, 2018 - 4:46am
Luther - I do mind engaging in intelligent discussion. That is what WB is about. But what I see is some people who are depending on hard-right websites which provide misinformation and then trot that out as fact. I'll give you an example - Europe is overrun with Muslims and is lost. It will be under Sharia law!
This is a classic example of Islamophobia and Fake News put out by the hard-right.
Europe has 5% Muslim. The highest concentrations are in Sweden and Germany 8%. The 92% non-Muslims are hardly likely to be subjected to Sharia law any time soon, are they? Indeed the States with an 18% Hispanic population has a greater chance of becoming catholic.
Now I would suggest that instead of ranting we engage in thoughtful discussion instead of fearmongering and merely reciting the doctrines put out from dubious sources.
opher goodwin Added Jul 10, 2018 - 5:31am
Fernando - that is a most excellent and thoughtful account of what has occurred over the last hundred years. I agree with your diagnosis. Capitalism has not only resulted in major catastrophes - such as the three major recessions, two world wars and numerous other wars (Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia) to name three, then there is the destablilisation of South and Central America and the support of corrupt powers in Africa, South America and the Middle East.
Soviet communism became a tyranny but democratic socialism produced much better societies and is, I believe, the future.
opher goodwin Added Jul 10, 2018 - 5:35am
Child - this is you
Troll off!!
opher goodwin Added Jul 10, 2018 - 5:36am
Jeff - the child troll is pathetic. 
opher goodwin Added Jul 10, 2018 - 5:38am
Mr Jones - thank you. Another book already in the pipeline. You were too late! Good reviews too! It seems that a lot of people enjoy my writing thanks.
Please don't buy one. I wouldn't want them soiled.
White Hair'd Added Jul 10, 2018 - 10:20am
You make a point about instances of strident rhetoric against certain governmental policies on immigration.
What then, of the opposite course, of governmental suppression of any information which has triggered the opposition's over- the- top rhetoric, in the first place?
News recently reached our shores, of an incident which happened in Germany, last April , when a Muslim nutjob beheaded his own 1 yr. old girl and stabbed her Mother to death in front a crowd in a Hamburg transit station.
Why did we just recently hear about this? Because Merkel ordered a blackout on all reporting of the incident.
How does such governmental action help anything?
Some insist that there is no problem with certain classes of immigrants, because their numbers are so low and they will never completely conquer the country.
Tell me about the no- go zones in Sweden and Germany, etc.
Tell me about the no- go zones in London. (Even the mouthpiece BBC reported on that.) Those zones certainly look an awful lot like conquered territory.
White Hair'd Added Jul 10, 2018 - 2:06pm
opher said,
"...Capitalism has not only resulted in major catastrophes - such as the three major recessions, two world wars and numerous other wars (Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia) to name three..."
Free speech is such a wonderful thing. What better vehicle, for people to reveal themselves.
opher goodwin Added Jul 10, 2018 - 4:00pm
Luther - it's lies. There are no no-go areas. My son lives in London. We walk all over. 
8% Muslim population in Sweden and Germany. No Sharia law or no-go areas. When I've visited it was fine. We walked all over. I certainly was far more unsafe in parts of Los Angeles when I lived there. I witnessed all manner of violence and felt the tension in Watts and the Chicano areas. There is no comparison.
opher goodwin Added Jul 10, 2018 - 4:00pm
None so blind as those who will not see.
Ryan Messano Added Jul 10, 2018 - 4:40pm
opher goodwin Added Jul 10, 2018 - 6:48pm
Child - this is you
Troll off!!
White Hair'd Added Jul 10, 2018 - 7:43pm
opher said,
"Luther - it's lies. There are no no-go areas."
I don't blame you far saying that the BBC documentary is lies.
I also know them for the lying propagandist rag that they are.
(Such a pity that you linked to one of their push pieces as truth, just to bolster your point, in another thread.)
Anyhow, here's a report in a Swedish newspaper, publishing an appeal by their National Police Commissioner, begging his government for help, as the number of Sweden's official no- go zones has increased from 55 to 61 in just one year. Help us! Help us!
I translated it, but you should be able to understand the title, even if you don't speak Swedish.
Allow me to help you with a few of the things that Commissioner Dan Eliasson said:
1) The problem is so bad that Sweden is approaching the point where the social contract breaks down and the trend must be stopped and reversed.
2) Sweden is experiencing an exodus of police officers and up to 80% of those remaining say that they are considering leaving the force, listing the violent attacks against them and the stress of overwork 9and underpay) trying to make up the deficit of officers. They also cite the "official" Swedish government policies and reports about the problem as cover-ups.
3) He detailed the closing of police stations in some affected areas, due to lack of manpower.
4) He told of one planned "fortress- like" station to be built in a very bad zone in Rinkeby, but are unable to get contractors willing to work on the building, as they fear even more violence against them.
Need I go on?
On a more personal note, you are known for making statements along the lines of "opher is on the side of the good guys and all about peace and love and stands against all forms of hate".
Yet, your words and actions here, belie that picture which you paint.
Going out into the world and digging up dirt on someone and dragging it back into this forum, just so you can add to your verbal assaults against them, is rather a hateful thing to do, wouldn't you agree?
I'm a firm believer in giving as good as I get, but still...
opher goodwin Added Jul 11, 2018 - 4:26am
Luther if you are referring to the nasty little troll who has been bombing my threads with his Nazi shit then no. The brat needs putting in his place.
As for the BBC account you speak of I know nothing about it and I very much doubt it exists. There are no no-go zones in London. 
As for Sweden and the alarmist stuff being put out by the right-wing - that too is exaggerated crap.
I bet they'd be talking about places like Compton as no-go areas.
opher goodwin Added Jul 11, 2018 - 4:48am
Luther - presumably you are referring to the gangs who fight in Tower Hamlets?
Yes we do have some gang activity in a number of our cities. They go out with baseball bats and fight. Not like in the States huh? There they go for with machine guns.
Not what I'd call a no-go area. Police go in there all the time.
That report was a bit sensationalised.
Note the bit at the bottom of the report - 
The Metropolitan Police said "considerable resources" had been put into policing Tower Hamlets and that street crime and other offences had been "significantly reduced" in the past three years, including a 25% drop in violent crime in the past 12 months.
I think we are talking about different things when we talk about no-go zones. Under your definitive most of LA would have been a no-go area when I lived there. One of my students was a gang leader and took me round the district where the Bloods and Crypts fought out their battles with guns. He had a huge arsenal of automatics, semi-automatics and rifles as well as handguns. He showed me the death lists and honours written up in the graffiti all over the place - who they were hunting and the already dead.
When I visited Watts towers my colleagues thought I was nuts and lucky to get out alive.
Compared to that a few gangs with knives and baseball bats are nothing.
White Hair'd Added Jul 11, 2018 - 7:52am
Your first mistake was in going to LA. There are people there that would keep you chained up next to the door and use you for a doorbell.
Although, Watts Tower is worth seeing.
And Amoeba Music.
As for no- go zones being a fiction... I suppose that's why in Sweden, police officers who speak out about the problem will find themselves "under investigation" for "inciting racial hatred".
Gotta love the PC media.
White Hair'd Added Jul 11, 2018 - 8:07am
What? Everyone who disagrees with you is a Nazi? How easily the modern Commies fling around that word.
(I didn't stutter.)
That person may have some personality disorder(s), but actions speak awfully loud, louder than the speech. Words used to have meaning and 'national socialist workers party' definitely meant something. Doesn't mean a thing anymore, when everybody is a Nazi, or a Fascist... or a far- right- winger.
In the other hand, you get to stroke that vision of yourself, there in your bubble. What dissonance must be triggeered, when the real world shows up in a reflection.
opher goodwin Added Jul 12, 2018 - 9:31am
Luther - oh no. I talk to plenty of right-wing people - a number here on WB who are not Nazis. But the brat certainly is. Being a Nazi consists of a number of ingredients - the racism, intolerance, scapegoating, nationalism are important ingredients.
opher goodwin Added Jul 12, 2018 - 9:33am
Luther - where do you get this information from about Sweden?
White Hair'd Added Jul 12, 2018 - 10:09am
opher- Where do I get my info? Everywhere I can.
Looks like you missed the link I gave in previous comment (July 10, 7:43pm,) to an original piece in the Göteborgs-Posten. (Gothenberg Post)
By the way, GP is a Liberal newspaper in Sweden.
A. Jones Added Jul 15, 2018 - 2:25am
It seems that a lot of people enjoy my writing thanks.
You don't read carefully. I didn't say that no one likes your writing. I said, "You're an atrocious writer." Understand the difference? A lot of people like junk food; that doesn't mean junk food is good.
Apparently, there are some people who don't mind atrocious writing, or perhaps are so bereft of literacy that they don't recognize atrocious writing when they read it. Lucky you.
opher goodwin Added Jul 15, 2018 - 6:11am
Mr Jones - thank you. I am sure that you, who has never written anything, are a good judge of literary merit.