Why I don't wear a red poppy!

Back in the sixties, where my philosophy stems from, we were a generation who wanted peace. We stood against war. We took the attitude that violence creates violence and there were better ways of dealing with problems.

 

The Vietnam war was raging. American boys were being brought back maimed or in body bags. Vietnamese people were being bombed and napalmed. There were atrocities, agent orange, the My Lai massacre, rape and torture. War is horrific and disgusting.

 

We opposed war.

 

The red poppy was seen as a symbol of war, and the Remembrance Service was run by the State that caused and ran that war. It really did not represent the ordinary soldiers who had fought, died and been mentally or physically maimed by that war.

 

The people organising the Remembrance Service were the same people who, in the 1st World War, had ordered the shooting of young soldiers suffering from Post Traumatic Stress. There was an element of jingoism and unpleasant nationalistic patriotism in that Remembrance Service that felt hypocritical.

 

In America I met US veterans who were traumatised by what they had seen and done. They despised the way they had been treated. They felt used and discarded.

 

I felt that the Vietnam War, like most wars, was not a just war. It was about politics and power - not justice.

 

Since then we have had what I consider to be illegal war after illegal war - Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, and Syria. More body bags, torture, rape and atrocities - more horror. All in the name of profit and economic imperialism.

 

If only as much money and energy had been put into solving the underlying problems we wouldn't have the festering Palestinian situation, the rise of militant Islam or mass migration. But no. They want war.

 

It is quite apparent that the soldiers who are sacrificed in these conflicts are being used. They come back physically maimed or suffering from Post Traumatic Stress and are largely discarded and forgotten. They rely on poppy sales and donations to gain any reasonable treatment. While the Remembrance Services perpetuate the same old hypocritical lie.

 

So my sympathies lie with the soldiers and not the politicians and generals who wrongly deploy them.

 

 

I would wear a poppy to support them, to acknowledge their bravery, and in recognition that we do need a military force to protect us; that there are forces out there who would threaten us.

 

I would wear a poppy to recognise the sacrifices made by our troops - the deaths, the injuries and psychological trauma.

 

I would wear a poppy to salute the brave men and women who protect us.

 

But I won't wear a poppy for the warmongering politicians or generals.

 

I won't wear a poppy for unjust wars.

 

So I choose to wear a white poppy.

 

The white poppy stands for peace. It supports our troops and the victims of war. It recognises their valour and their role in protecting us while not supporting the war machine that is causing such wanton destruction around the world.

 

I wear a white poppy.

Comments

The Burghal Hidage Added Nov 6, 2018 - 8:20am
White or red, it is good to remember the insanity that was the first world war.  I had a great uncle who served in the chemical corps at the age of 17. He and 6 others of his class in a small village went off to the front. He was the only one to return alive. In many villages in Britain, France, Belgium and, lest we forget, Germany too....there were none who came home. And the Russians! Another three years of civil war, foreign invasion and the subsequent 70 years of workers paradise. We would all do well to know the history and never forget. I don't think the lads whose corpses simply rotted in muddy trenches give much of damn for what color poppy you wear. Maybe just glad that we should still remember.
The common soldiers lot was largely the same regardless the uniform. The criminals were the German and French general staffs annnnd......top of my list for War Criminal? Sir Douglas Haig! Grand Prize Butcher.
The French General Staff, GQG en francais, led by Joffre, were a pack of incompetent boobs with the sole exception of General Rene Lanrezac of the V corps. He was the lone voice of sanity on the entire staff and he was to be vilified as an insubordinate for his part in the battle of the Marne. It was largely due to his insubordination that the French were not enveloped. Once the dust settled from the Marne the real insanity began. 
To better understand much of the global dysfunction of today one must study and fully grasp how the geopolitical map was shaped at the conclusion of WWI. We're still paying for it today.
Dino Manalis Added Nov 6, 2018 - 8:34am
 That's why peace through strength is fundamental globally!
opher goodwin Added Nov 6, 2018 - 8:53am
Burger - I wholeheartedly agree. It is a question of how to remember and honour the dead (and the maimed and living who served) while vilifying the incompetent bastards who sent them to death.
We should support our veterans and honour them. We do need our military to protect us.
All too often they are deployed wrongly and used as cannon fodder.
opher goodwin Added Nov 6, 2018 - 8:54am
Dino - yes - we need a global perspective. That is why I support the UN. I want the UN to function much better than it does and bring peace to the world.
Stone-Eater Added Nov 6, 2018 - 10:44am
Oph
 
The UN and peace ? What an illusion. Peace is in the hands of the powerful, not the UN. Club of blatherers with no power.
 
BTW: The best electric guitarist (Rock, Jazz) was Ollie Halsall from Patto. Not these hyped Claptons, Pages, Hendrix and the like. Check also out Hassan Hajdi and Buckethead.
Doug Plumb Added Nov 6, 2018 - 11:28am
re " That is why I support the UN. I want the UN to function much better than it does and bring peace to the world."
 
That is why you are insane. You and the other materialists on here think that humanity can be lead by men rather than rational principles. C S Lewis explains the corruption process, it's also in the movies. No man is without sin.
opher goodwin Added Nov 6, 2018 - 11:29am
Stone - better to talk than fight.
Doug Plumb Added Nov 6, 2018 - 11:29am
I don't wear the poppy either. Those soldiers were fighting for the world government agenda, not to protect freedom. They are victims.
opher goodwin Added Nov 6, 2018 - 11:30am
Stone - I'll check out your guitarists.
opher goodwin Added Nov 6, 2018 - 11:31am
Dino - I'm insane?? I suppose the UN is a Jewish conspiracy in your eyes. CS Lewis was a Christian writer of kids stories.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 6, 2018 - 3:29pm
Actually, Opher, it would be more accurate to describe the UN as the home of Islamic conspiracy.  It no longer follows its own charter, and it was never intended to be more than a venue for talking.  Only people who actually want to negotiate and compromise in pursuit of peace could exploit such a notion successfully.  Those who insist on intransigent agendas for selfish ends cannot meet such criteria and can only inhibit its original lofty dream. 
 
And CS Lewis wrote quite a number of insightful books for adult readers, his Christian perspective notwithstanding.
Benjamin Goldstein Added Nov 6, 2018 - 4:14pm
Why does even have the poppy to be divisive? Let's all unite and remember that the war did not only kill our soldiers, but also a lot of communists.
11b40 Added Nov 6, 2018 - 4:21pm
I will wear the red poppy, in honor of the sacrifice so many soldiers made, up to, and including, Vietnam.  Yes, they were lied to, and yes they were treated like pawns on the chessboard, but they were fighting for what they believed to be true and good. 
Vietnam was the turning point.  It is when the nation learned to ask questions and demand answers.  It is when the MIC learned that they could no longer count on 'volunteers' and draftees to field an Army.  They ran out of volunteers, and the conscripts were rebelling throughout the ranks.  Officers were being killed by their own troops. 
When we finally packed up and went home, the all-new Volunteer Mercenary Army was born.  The military we have today is not the same as what came before.  Far too much has been turned over to private contractors, including both basic things like cooks and mail delivery as well as certain combat & security operations.  We had some dark forces operating in Vietnam under the wings of the CIA and SOG, but now we have very dark forces in every direction you look.  We fight now for the benefit of corporations, Israel, and war profiteers.  There were ulterior motives in prior wars as well, but the difference is that now we are so much more aware of it.
 
Perhaps a black poppy movement may be more appropriate to show disdain for the bankers, politicians, and others of the ruling classes who lead us into these stupid wars.
 
Full disclosure, I am a Vietnam Vet who served with the 101st ABN in a recon squad, and currently undergoing treatments for NHL.  The VC couldn't get me, the NVA couldn't get me, but Monsanto just might finish me off.
 
 
Lindsay Wheeler Added Nov 6, 2018 - 5:55pm
Nothing like a dead commie. 
 
To celebrate, let's crack some champagne. 
 
Opher, get over yourself. "I want peace". Opher, while you declaim physical violence, your kind have been engaged in cultural and intellectual violence!  It was liberals like you that created Communism that spread all over the world. The first thing the Viet Cong did when entering a village, they killed all the Catholics!  What do liberals hate the most?  The Catholic Church. The Americans in the 50s had to fly all the Roman Catholics out of Hanoi because they were going to be killed. 
 
I like how the drivel of the Left talk about the Vietnam war. Catholics were being killed, and the left twists it into being about money!  What a hoot. 
 
War is everywhere and will continue. You won't be able to stop it Opher. You can't face reality. 
opher goodwin Added Nov 6, 2018 - 6:57pm
Bohica - yes John McCrae's poem was used to recruit more to go into the horror. I prefer Wilfred Owen.
opher goodwin Added Nov 6, 2018 - 7:00pm
PL - you need to talk to others on here who think it is conspiracy.
Of course it isn't either.
It was put together after the war, out of the ashes of the failed League of Nations, in order to prevent another world war.
It has had mixed success but it is still a great place to talk through the world's many problems and set a tone.
Winston Churchill was one of its architects - Jaw Jaw is better than War War.
opher goodwin Added Nov 6, 2018 - 7:02pm
11B40 - I understand and agree with your suggestion for a black poppy.
opher goodwin Added Nov 6, 2018 - 7:03pm
Benjamin - and a lot of fascists.
opher goodwin Added Nov 6, 2018 - 7:05pm
Lindsay - No I don't like war or violence. I want an end to it. If something is wrong it needs changing.
The Viet Cong were brutal. They probably did kill Catholics but that isn't why the USA went in.
Doug Plumb Added Nov 6, 2018 - 8:31pm
@Benjamin re " Let's all unite and remember that the war did not only kill our soldiers, but also a lot of communists. "
 
The soldiers on both sides were victims, as usually (maybe always) the case.
Ward Tipton Added Nov 6, 2018 - 8:32pm
TBH "To better understand much of the global dysfunction of today one must study and fully grasp how the geopolitical map was shaped at the conclusion of WWI. We're still paying for it today."
 
And the implementation of the globalist system of banksters. That is what has led us into the quagmire of today ... and yes Opher, the UN is run by the banksters and have no room for peace in their negotiations. Theirs is an arbitrary enforcement, generally only regarding Israel and those nations that do not play so nicely with the global banksters. 
 
Seventy years of the UN and more when we could the League of Nations and half the world living in poverty and nary a day without a war or battle going on somewhere? They are either hopelessly incompetent or willfully objectionable to their stated purpose. 
 
I would strongly recommend reading "War is a Racket" by General Smedley D. Butler. 
 
The USA went in to Vietnam merely because they refused to allow the open elections they had promised in 62 knowing that they would elect Uncle Ho. (Not to be confused with the "Ho's" mentioned so often in the rap music of today)
Doug Plumb Added Nov 6, 2018 - 8:33pm
Lindsay is right, Opher cannot face reality. He has a blind spot wrt the perils of communism.
The Owl Added Nov 6, 2018 - 10:00pm
Opher, I fully agree that talking is far preferable to fighting.  But if only one party in the fight wants to talk, the fighting is inevitable.
 
And when "talking" becomes a cover for military advantage through stealth, it is only the truly stupid wwo only talk and don't counter.
 
As for the United Nations?  A "tower of babble on the Hudson" is an apt description of theirs intent and their effectiveness.
 
Not one UN success story hasn't been accomplished without US and NATO military might as part of the equation, and there haven't been many UN success stories in it's almost eight most decades existence.  And remember that it's predecessor was rendered impotent by a nation choosing to fight while the rest to the world yammered impotently about how horrible it was that one of its members had the fall to steal a March on the rest of the world.
 
Poor Woodrow...he just didn't have a clue that ideal and real are often at odds, and at violent odds,too.
 
I'll also agree that having a place to talk is an important first step.  But it takes people who are willing to tell truth to the assembled dissemblers and peopke who have the muscle necessary to be credible behind them to bring that are abortedugust assembly of hot air some refreshing cool air of candor.
 
I found Nikki Haley to be one of the mostly effective diplomats to represent our interests since Eleanor Roosevelt held that position during the Truman years. (Note that both Truman and Trump are noted for a disdain for the politically correct in favor of answers that indeed answer the questions and answer the questions asked.
 
But unless such measured and forceful voices are present in the UN chambers,  that organization will continue to be a place of great promise with little to recommend it's continued existence...
 
Particularly, if the US taxpayer is picking up an out-sized proportion of the tab.
The Owl Added Nov 6, 2018 - 10:24pm
Ward...
 
I don't think you can disconnect the decision to oppose Hi Chi Minh from the context of American foreign policy concerns of creeping Communism, even when many saw Ho more as a nationalist than as a Communist.  That he was taking weapons for his fight against first the French and subsequently the Americans from the Russians could not be ignored.  Kruschiev's treatment of Kennedy in Vienna put presidential ego front and center in our foreign policy for the next decade as successive presidents had to wrestle with a war that was increasingly unwinnable.
 
It's ironic that the Great Satin, Richard Nixon had the political smarts to understand that declaring victory and going home was the least costly option to avoid another decade of losses in financial, political, an human terms...There very same Richard Nixon that opened the doors to dialogue  to that Asian giant, China.
 
The analysis of X that pushed containment bad foreign policy was in play.  And, in many ways, it remains so today.
 
And, to tie in to Opher's thinking on the United Nations, containment is not successful if all you are willing to do is to play in the Tower of Babble on the Hudson.
 
Cullen Kehoe Added Nov 7, 2018 - 12:31am
Good post. WWI was one of the dumbest wars ever fought because there was no purpose. It started on accident, there was no real objective, nothing anyone hoped to gain. It was simply who has the greater Empire, who is master of the universe? 
 
(Caveat: I understand that even after the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand of Hungary, that the British and German diplomats would have been able to work out a peaceful solution but the 'rah rah rah', "we'll show you" side of each country won the day on either side and they thought they'd teach the other lesson. And they'd be home by Christmas. Interesting that this is exactly what people on both sides of the U.S. Civil War said at its outbreak--moreso the Southerners.)
Cullen Kehoe Added Nov 7, 2018 - 12:38am
Vietnam War in hindsight ranks right up there on the list of dumb wars too. Vietnam just wanted to be independent, going back to the mid 50's. But the Domino Theory said the U.S. had to fight Communists the world over.
 
Funny that only a few years after the end of the Vietnam War, China began allowing its farmers to operate autonomously on capitalistic principals. And that was the model that Vietnam began to follow too. A slow transition to capitalism their own way (ruled by a Communist party). 
C.L.(Chuck)Troupe Added Nov 7, 2018 - 12:44am
Don't forget about Django Reinhardt. He is still regarded as one of the best (if not THE best) jazz guitarists of the 20th century. But as for me, I prefer Luther Perkins, Chet Atkins, and Roy Clark.
 
 
Neil Lock Added Nov 7, 2018 - 3:36am
Opher: I, like you, have become tired of the nonsense that is spouted at Remembrance services, and the hype that surrounds the whole thing, particularly this year. If the political establishment really wanted to end war, they could do it easily. But they don't want to do that. For, as Randolph Bourne told us, war is the health of the state. (It's very profitable for the politically connected, too.)
 
That said, there is something to be celebrated about the centenary of the end of world war I, at least for my Polish friends. For it's also the centenary of the restoration of Polish independence.
Sunshine Kid Added Nov 7, 2018 - 3:40am
I'm a survivor of the Vietnam war.  I'm a life member of the VFW and a few other organizations.  And I stand with my brothers in arms.
 
One thing stands out above all else, in my mind:  I didn't go to Vietnam to fight a war.  I went because I was ordered to go, and it was my job.  I had no choice.  I went into the USAF just to avoid being drafted.  Yes, I'm that old.
 
I got spit at when I arrived back in the USA.  I didn't start the war, but I was definitely accused of being a part of something I had no control over - called a baby murderer and other foul things.  Does anyone think that helps the military members to feel good about fighting for a country that outright despises them?
 
I've been there.  I've done what I was told to do, no more than a sales clerk is told by his boss.  What RIGHT do you have to disrespect me?  Well, the right of the first amendment, but remember:  I also have that right, and if I protest, either accept it graciously, or be known as the hypocrites I see all the time, saying they are all for "inclusion" and "diversity", but refuse to include me because of my sex, skin color or the fact that I was in the military and did a job I had no choice about.
Spartacus Added Nov 7, 2018 - 4:44am
Sunshine Kid, many of us appreciate what you guys did.  The sacrifice. 
Vietnam was a war that had to be fought.  The problem is, as always, how much should a nation sacrifice to save the world.
 
What we have learned since that war about communism has been extraordinary.  Europe would split the difference and accepted a watered-down version of communism.  USSR dove into communism and drove its empire into the dirt -- along with millions of its citizens.  Russia is now the most conservative nation in Europe.   Amazing lessons there.
 
Who would have ever guessed all that would transpire since the 1960's & 70's?  Certainly not all the politicians who saw communism circling the globe and murdering anyone who got it its way.  You guys had to do one of the hardest jobs of those times.  I would say that if Russia, in 1941, was a democracy like the USA today, Hitler would have taken Europe.  Democracies have limited tolerance when its own have to start paying heavy prices in war.
Stone-Eater Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:06am
I found Nikki Haley to be one of the mostly effective diplomats
 
Arrogant bitch. That's how we Europeans perceived her. Same category as Nuland. I'm no chauvinist but sluts like that have to shut up and work behind a counter.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:30am
Do you likewise perceive all forthright women to be arrogant bitches, Stone?  Nikki Haley spoke truth in the face of powerful liars, and you have no justification to slander her as a "slut", nor to shut her up nor press her toward invisible ignominy "behind a counter".  Now, as it happens, she has resigned her diplomatic appointment and it remains to be seen in what capacity she will next appear.  But if you truly represent European opinion, you present it in a most unflattering light.
David Hilton Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:31am
Opher. We will always have war simply because it lines the pockets of the corrupt Political class via bribes from the MIC. War is a huge money maker for the weapons manufacturers, no war, no business, no profit. To those who make money from war the death and destruction of millions of their fellow human beings is irrelevant, meaningless, after all that`s what the peasantry was put on this Earth for in the first place, to toil, fight and die for their benefit; just as long as they or their families have to fight and die all is well with the world, ask the now he`s no longer of fighting age warmonger and advocate of bombing all and sundry into submission and zealous supporter of carnage in general, but when he was of fighting age the Vietnam war draft dodger John Bolton, Security adviser to another Vietnam war draft dodger but now happy and eager to send YOUR sons and daughters to their deaths, President Donald Trump.
 
The prerequisite qualifications for a career in politics. 1, must be a congenital liar. 2, must have a penchant for corruption. 3, must be of a psychotic nature, preferably xenophobic and or schizophrenic. 4, must hold the public who they are sworn to serve in complete contempt and have no qualms at ordering the wholesale slaughter of entire countries.
 
We need a better system of governance than that currently provided by the self serving vested interests who have control of our very lives, and deaths.
 
David Hilton Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:34am
Addendum to my comment. It of course should read "as long as their families DON`T have to fight". More haste, etc.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:36am
Doug - I agree - everyone is a victim!
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:39am
Ward - so now the UN is run by Muslims, Jews and Banks??
I think not. It is a talking shop. It has been active and the number of conflicts has gone down. It highlights an agreed morality.
That's what we need. We need to make it more effective and put an end to war and poverty altogether.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:40am
Doug - no I am not blind to the perils of totalitarian communism. I don't support it. I support democratic socialism.
Sunshine Kid Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:41am
Spartacus, part of the problem is that our leaders, ever since WWII, have felt that the USA should be the world's police.  Not so.  We had no business being in Vietnam.  It was dumped upon us by the French, who lost control of it, and asked President Eisenhower to bail them out of the situation.  Today, we are engaged in far too many conflicts that have nothing to do with national security and everything to do with political posturing.
 
And by the way, the USA is NOT and never was a "democracy".  If you care to look at Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution of the United States, you will find that it reads nothing about being a democracy.  It states"
 
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:44am
Owl - there are many ways to bring pressure on people who are not complying - diplomatic, sanctions and drying up the funding, exposing the reasons. 
The UN has been successful. It has put troops to help keep calm in many areas of the world. The number of wars has decreased. No it is not as successful as it could be.
We need to make it better.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:46am
Owl - I agree - there has to be more than just talk. But talk is important, particularly if it is backed up with trade restrictions.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:48am
Cullen. Thank you. That is the way most wars start. They are always going to be over in weeks. They never are. The ramifications live on for generations.
There are people on WB clamouring for a civil war. It's daft.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:49am
Cullen - in my view most wars were not justified - Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya. There were better ways.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:51am
Chuck - are you on the right thread? I haven't released my one on guitarists yet!
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:52am
My dear Sunshine Kid -- You are neglecting the portions of the Constitution that guarantee the right to vote for the representatives who constitute this Republic.  Hence the republic can only exist by means of democratic processes.  Thus it is a *democratic* republic, which is one form that a democracy can take.  Thus the USA is most certainly a democracy and it always was so.  It is simply a complex form of democracy rather than a victim of mindless raw-majority mob rulership.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:52am
Neil - I too would celebrate the end of war and respect and value the sacrifices of the military. What I don't do is give credence to the leadership who start the things.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 5:55am
Sunshine - I despise the war but I respect the men and women who went to war. You should never be treated disrespectfully for being sent to war.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 6:02am
Spartacus - I do not think that the Vietnam war (or Cambodia, Laos) was necessary. The communists were never going to take over the world. The domino effect was a false premise.
I am bemused by your comment - 
I would say that if Russia, in 1941, was a democracy like the USA today, Hitler would have taken Europe.  Democracies have limited tolerance when its own have to start paying heavy prices in war.
It was Russia that took the brunt of the fascist German force. They suffered terrible losses and broke the Germans at Stalingrad. They were our allies in the war. We armed and supplied them. If Hitler had not taken on Russia he would likely not have lost.
It was after the war that the allies turned on Russia and the Cold War began. That was probably a lost opportunity.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 6:05am
Stone - I share your dislike of the lady but would not describe her that way.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 6:10am
David - I don't believe that war is inevitable. We have to find ways of preventing it. We're getting better.
Yes I do think we have to find better ways of governance. Too many of our politicians are psychopaths, narcissists, sociopaths and are corrupt - but not all.
Money runs the business. We need to get it out of the system. The two party system is not good.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 7, 2018 - 6:24am
It seemed to me, Opher, that Spartacus' point was that a democratic Russia would have lacked the stamina to bear the brunt of the effort against the Nazis. Nonetheless, communist ideology does seek power to exert totalitarian control over everything.  It would affect the entire planet if not resisted, and then it would bankrupt it, starting the violent revolutionary cycle all over again.  Sometimes it bankrupts a country *before* its ideology can be spread farther abroad, inhibiting its native desire to take over everything.  Even now, socialist ideology, which is a diluted form of communist ideology, is rampant across the western world and contrary to the notions of individual liberty and natural rights.  It still fosters collective control from the top rather than individual enterprise and ingenuity.  The so-called "domino effect" in SE Asia was an observation rather than a premise, and it was based on fact and stated intentions, not fantasy or falsehood.  You say "the allies turned on Russia" to begin the Cold War.  You neglect Soviet arrogance and hegemony that turned on the allies and their efforts to restore liberties that had been lost under wartime conditions.  There was no opportunity available at that time to be "lost".
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 7:28am
PL - so you and Spartacus are saying that communism saved the world from Nazi fascism? And democracy would have failed?
I think it was more the fortitude and resolve of the Russian people. They have a long history of resolutely dealing with invasion. I personally doubt if it would have made much difference if it was democratic or communist. 
I do not support totalitarianism. Communism tends to do that. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened in Russia if the democratic Mensheviks had taken power. They should have done. The Bolsheviks rather got in through the backdoor.
I do not see democratic socialism as being totalitarian. They produce a fairer society with greater equality, controlled capitalism and far better standards of living. 
Sunshine Kid Added Nov 7, 2018 - 7:28am
Proclaim Liberty, I am well aware that the USA is a democratic republic.  It is not, however, a simple democratcy, which is pretty much mob rule, and what the politicians have done to the voting system in almost every legislation forum.  It used to be a 75% majority vote for major issues and 66.7% majority vote for less important issues.  However, the Congress and House and most legislatures in the various states now accept mob rule - 51% majority rule.

So, when someone says our Constitution is based on "democracy", I cringe a bit, because that is not what our country is.  It is a republic, rule by law, not by majority vote of a bare majority.  Worse, there are issues that preclude the majority because some "individual" MIGHT be offended.  That was NEVER the point of the creation of a republic, but that is what the politicians have done to us.

Also, your answer about Russia in WWII is valid, in my view.  Russians were viscious, using their political officers to control situations that sometimes were simply beyond control.  They pushed just as much as the Germans, and the only difference between them was that communism was just a bit more brutal than socialism.  Don't get me wrong - I do not subscribe to either of those economic and political ideologies.  They are simply more flawed than capitalism.

And as to your final observations, quite right.

Opher, I agree.  NO ONE should be treated with disrespect.  But that is what the political animals have done to us all - divide us into this, that and the other segments, and start throwing mud around.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 7:32am
PL - the domino effect was a fear not a reality. The US saw that Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos looked to be going over to communism. They imagined it spreading to Thailand and on. There was no sign of that.
It seems to me that it is up to the people in those countries how they want to be governed. Why did the States set out to interfere? (Likewise with left regimes in South America that the CIA undermined and overthrew putting military tyrants in place). What gives the States the right? There was no threat to them.
Spartacus Added Nov 7, 2018 - 11:12am
Sunshine Kid,
We had no business being in Vietnam. 
 
You can say this in hindsight but at the time, communism looked like a fight that was a lethal threat to the united states.  The Vietnam war was a proxy war between the USA and communist Russia & China.  Consider the more deadly alternative -- full out nuclear engagement between the two factions.  You are missing the bigger picture in your acquiesce.
 
So, when someone says our Constitution is based on "democracy", I cringe a bit, because that is not what our country is. 
Bullshit.  Our country is a republic of states with a democratic system for transferring government power from one entity to the next.  Don't give me that sophomoric crap about the USA not being a democracy.  Here's the definition to remind you . . . 
 
"a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives."
Spartacus Added Nov 7, 2018 - 11:21am
It was Russia that took the brunt of the fascist German force. 
 
Ya, opher.  No shit, Sherlock. 
 
The very reason that if Russia were a democracy at the time after they had lost the first million casualties, they would have had 1000 Russian "Jane Fondas" stripping naked in front of a T-26 tank singing, "We Can Overcome".
Stone-Eater Added Nov 7, 2018 - 11:50am
Oph
 
If a slut like Nuland can say Fuck the EU I have all the right in the world to call her what she is. I'm not into PC.
Stone-Eater Added Nov 7, 2018 - 11:53am
Sunkid
 
.  It is not, however, a simple democratcy, which is pretty much mob rule
 
Ok. So we Swiss who have direct democracy are a mob ruled society. It doesn't surprise me to read such bullshit anymore though. Especially from people over the pond who have no idea about whatsoever. See my latest article on that....
John Allman Added Nov 7, 2018 - 12:13pm
In 2012, I wrote a poem entitled "Burning the Poppy", about a British teenager's arrest for burning a (red) remembrance poppy.  Mention it because I think some of those who have commented here, and you, Opher Goodwin, might enjoy it, and the ideas expressed in it.
 
Burning the poppy
https://johnallmanuk.wordpress.com/2012/11/13/for-our-tomorrow/
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 12:19pm
Yeah - no shit Spartacus. Do you know the history of the war? It was the Russians, our allies, who broke Hitler at huge cost of life.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 12:20pm
The very reason that if Russia were a democracy at the time after they had lost the first million casualties, they would have had 1000 Russian "Jane Fondas" stripping naked in front of a T-26 tank singing, "We Can Overcome".
Bonkers.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 12:21pm
Stone - I no what you mean. She might be a prize shit but that doesn't make her a slut.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 12:24pm
Sunshine - The US is a Republic run by democracy. That's why everyone votes. We've just seen democracy in action. It isn't mob rule - though electing Trump feels like that.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 12:32pm
John - thank you for sending that through. I liked it very much and I agree with the sentiments.
They fought to give us the right.
Spartacus Added Nov 7, 2018 - 1:03pm
It was the Russians, our allies, who broke Hitler at huge cost of life.
 
No shit, Sherlock.  Now, run along and play with the rest of the boys.
C.L.(Chuck)Troupe Added Nov 7, 2018 - 1:07pm
Sorry ... I think it was Stone who posted "...BTW: The best electric guitarist (Rock, Jazz) was Ollie Halsall from Patto. Not these hyped Claptons, Pages, Hendrix and the like. Check also out Hassan Hajdi and Buckethead..." When I logged in, and was reading the comments to your poppy article, there was ... oh, crap!  I gotta learn to navigate this forum better.
Stone-Eater Added Nov 7, 2018 - 1:43pm
CL
 
Sorry my fault. I posted on an article not out yet :))
Sunshine Kid Added Nov 7, 2018 - 3:17pm
Spartacus, Even when I was in Vietnam I felt we had no business there.  I did not see any threat to our national security at the time.  I knew we were there because the French lost control of the situation and Eisenhower bailed them out.  Worse, the war was micromanaged by Washington rather than just turning the troops loose and getting the job done.  That bore out by 1975, when the Communists regrouped and defeated the South Vietnamese after the Americans pulled out of the war.  Nixon promised military replacement, but the Democrats in Congress controlled the budget and wouldn't refit the South Vietnamese as they lost equipment in their defense.

Stone-Eater, you are dead right - never secumb to political correctness nonsense.  But arguing over whether the USA is a "democracy" or a "democratic republic" is perfectly fine, right?  Go ahead and be divisive about words, but the difference between "thanks" and "no thanks" is one single word.  The result of the discussion is based on either complete understanding of what is being discussed or focusing in on only the part with which you agree.

John Allman, I can say this about your poetry:  Poignant.
Cullen Kehoe Added Nov 7, 2018 - 6:28pm
@Sunshine Kid - Thanks for your service. I was in no way diminishing the performance of the young men who went to Vietnam. I just think everything would have been better had that war never been fought. 

It tore the U.S.A. apart in the 60's as well. It drove the entire Baby Boomer generation into the arms of the extreme Left.
 
It arguably brought down the Nixon presidency (the press was so hostile to him, that a little thing like the Watergate break-in was given such prominence and Nixon, in the midst of fighting Vietnam, was paranoid so he kept abusing power to cover it up. Having said that, I think Johnson and possibly Kennedy were guilty of worse abuses of power than Nixon but the press was their pocket.
 
Gulf of Tonken incident which started the official "Vietnam War" for the U.S.A. was completely made up. Nothing even happened but President Johnson blew it up into some major "act of war" and Johnson went to Congress for a blank check to prosecute the "war" which Congress gave him). 
 
And there are countless recordings of President Johnson today asking many others (Generals, Senators, Secretary of Defense McNamara) about the chancing of "winning" in Vietnam and them telling him, before the Tet Offensive and all that, in the mid 60's that it was a quagmire. That the U.S. should get out. Johnson is on tape responding that he doesn't see a way out of the mess. Then he'd go make a speech the same day saying U.S. troops are about to win the war, it's glorious, and stopping the spread of communism. Dishonest to the core.  
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 6:55pm
CL - no problem. Stone was posting on the wrong thread too. I have an article held in abeyance about the best electric guitarist. It'll be out soon.
Thanks for commenting anyway! Just a bit premature.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 6:55pm
Spartacus - you really need to learn a bit more history - at least up to 5th grade.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 6:57pm
Sunshine - precisely. Shouldn't have gone in in the first place.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 7:01pm
Cullen - no it didn't drive them to the left - it woke them up and made them think. They wanted out of the war machine and they wanted a fairer less environmentally destructive society freed of greed and selfishness. They were very idealistic and prepared to go out and protest and fight for something better.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 7:01pm
Cullen - it was Kennedy who started it. They all lied after that.
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 7:02pm
Cullen - I don't thinking a President sanctioning burglary is a small thing.
Sunshine Kid Added Nov 7, 2018 - 7:10pm
Cullen Kehoe, you are so right - that war did tear our nation apart.  And I am a so-called "Baby Boomer", but I am certainly not leftist.  I've played both sides, depending on what I felt was the right side at the time.  I voted for JFK and Nixon, so go figure.  The reason was that both of them promised to get the military out of Vietnam.  JFK was assassinated, and I do believe that Johnson was in on it, because he immediately reversed the proposed drawdown of involvement in Vietnam.  I did not like Johnson at all.
Cullen Kehoe Added Nov 7, 2018 - 7:14pm
Is a president lying the country into a war more or less a crime? 
opher goodwin Added Nov 7, 2018 - 7:16pm
Cullen - it's a crime but they all do it - every one of them.
Ward Tipton Added Nov 7, 2018 - 8:15pm
"I don't think you can disconnect the decision to oppose Hi Chi Minh from the context of American foreign policy concerns of creeping Communism, even when many saw Ho more as a nationalist than as a Communist."
 
I am not trying to disconnect it, and I have many brothers who fought there, most of whom paid in blood. I am in whole agreement however, with General Smedley when he declares that war is a racket. Where was the welcome home for Sunshine Kid? For my brothers? They won the battlefields in virtually all instances, but the politicians failed the soldiers and the whole thing going in was because the US government refused to allow the people of VietNam to elect their own leaders as the US had promised. 
 
If the US were a democratic constitutional republic, there would not be an Electoral College. Democracy is only discussed at the township level, not at the national level. However, it was also established as a nationalist system and we now have a full on federalist system. (A Nationalist system is one in which the States and the National Body both retain their sovereignty whereas in our current Federalist system, the States are subject to the federal system)
 
The Russians requested and were granted permission to be the first ones into Berlin so as to "return the favor" as it were, for all the horrors the Nazis had partaken in through their attempted conquest of Russia. Patton also noted that if we allowed him to have the US and German Armies, he would have done away with the threat of Communism then and there ... but some have speculated that this was the reason for his "accidental death" a short time later. Still, the request was made and in a rare display of humanity, the US government decided to save some American lives. 
 
Opher, try reading my comments on the UN and try again ... if it was run by "Jews" as you call them, why would Israel be the recipient of so much grief from the UN? How did you even get Muslims into that picture? And no, they have not been successful. Nary a day without a battle or war somewhere during their existence and nearly half the population of the world living in poverty? I would call that an EPIC FAIL! But then again, it was never about world peace to begin with ... think Bretton Woods. 
Doug Plumb Added Nov 7, 2018 - 10:26pm
re ".. if it was run by "Jews" as you call them, why would Israel be the recipient of so much grief from the UN? "
 
What actual (other than words) grief from the UN does Israel actually receive? None ?
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 8, 2018 - 1:28am
There is a long litany of false condemnations that the UN has directed against Israel, but you asked about actions other than words. I presume you haven't visited Israel to observe personally how many UN organizations and personnel and vehicles are operating in Israel. What other states in the world do you know that have so many foreign organizations second-guessing and interfering with their government's administration? For that matter, are there any in the neighboring Arab states? If you could see firsthand the degree of subversion abetted by the UN, you would not ask such a question. 
Sunshine Kid Added Nov 8, 2018 - 1:36am
UN has a new meaning:  "Underwriting Nutcases" (liberal do-gooders).
opher goodwin Added Nov 8, 2018 - 4:03am
Ward - I have recently read comments on threads claiming that the UN is a Jewish conspiracy, A Muslim conspiracy and a globalist Bankers conspiracy.
Of course it is none of the above.
It is representatives from all the countries of the world (apart from some minor players - Palestine, Vatican City, Taiwan, Western Sahara, Kosovo, South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Northern Cyprus) brought together to look at the global issues of war, poverty and human rights.
It has, as its basis, the agreed document of the Declaration of Human Rights. Which in my opinion is the best document humans have ever produced.
It enables the world to discuss issues, deal with transgressions and take action when necessary.
Who can possibly say how effective this has been? How many incidents has it headed off? What better rights people have?
I think it has achieved a lot.
It shines a spotlight on wrongdoing. It highlights transgressions. It brought pressure to bear.
Unfortunately it is not as effective as it could be. All too often the greater powers use their vetoes to prevent action. All too often they have not been quick enough to act. All too often their action has been too limited. All too often their troops have been behaving badly.
I do not want a body that wades in with a heavy hand. I do not want more violence.
I want a body that deploys diplomacy and the spotlight of publicity to show up countries that abuse. I want issues discussed and brought into the open. I want trade and sanctions brought to bear and I want peacekeeper forces deployed in an observer way.
We need a body like the UN and we need to make sure that it is managed properly and addresses the issues.
I put my faith in an effective UN.
opher goodwin Added Nov 8, 2018 - 4:09am
Doug - yes it does.
opher goodwin Added Nov 8, 2018 - 4:11am
PL - there we go - some say the UN doesn't interfere enough with Israel and some say too much.
As it is the focus of most of the problems in the ME I reckon the UN does need to give it special attention.
opher goodwin Added Nov 8, 2018 - 4:11am
Sunshine - I would rather do good rather than do bad!
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 8, 2018 - 5:07am
The only reason Israel is accused (falsely) of causing problems in the ME is because Islamic Arabs have been fighting against the loss of the Islamic Ottoman Empire a century ago and the resultant restoration of Jewish sovereignty in a very small portion of land once controlled by Muslims (among others).  Of course Arabs have been fighting among themselves for 1400 years, so perhaps no one would notice the continuation of it during the past century if they didn't blame it on the Jews.  UN interference has been perpetuating problems in that region which could have been resolved long ago; and because of the large number of Muslim nations that form a large voting bloc therein, these problems are not addressed with reason or fact, but as an alternative means to continue Islamic warfare against the values of the west and against the Jewish sovereignty that has been restored in its own ancient homeland.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Nov 8, 2018 - 5:11am
Ghoulishly speaking, the horrible wars of the past were good wars for the fishes that gouged on the bodies of sailors and soldiers; thus, replenishing the sea with seafood we so love. It was good wars for the trees which were watered by bloody rivers that nourished them into producing the abundance of fruits and vegetables.  Blood that strengthened mother earth as she wept into weakness at out inhumanity. But today's wars are no good. They pollute and contaminate the rivers, seas, oceans, and mother earth with phosphor bombs and depleted uranium munitions that vaporize victims into contaminated piles. Oh, we pine for good wars to help produce food to feed a growing overpopulated planet.
 
Still, we are blessed from all wars as the 100 million killed would have had 300 million children who would have had 900 million children whose would have had 2700 million children. That in total could have been another 3.9 billion souls on the earth. How would we fare then? Would it have been better if we depended on natural disasters to cull the population or start some wars to achieve the same objective?
 
 
 
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 8, 2018 - 5:22am
I presume, Dr.Green, that your ghoulish speech is also somewhat tongue-in-cheek.  Otherwise, you might have noted the phenomenon of fertility reduction in overcrowded populations, as well as a tendency toward increased violence, both of which tend to reduce population growth.  You do, however, indirectly call attention to the fact that no one here has actually presented the reasons for warfare which range from selfishness and greed to altruism and idealism.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Nov 8, 2018 - 6:15am
@Liberty. "I presume, Dr.Green, that your ghoulish speech is also somewhat tongue-in-cheek.  Otherwise, you might have noted the phenomenon of fertility reduction in overcrowded populations, as well as a tendency toward increased violence, both of which tend to reduce population growth.  You do, however, indirectly call attention to the fact that no one here has actually presented the reasons for warfare which range from selfishness and greed to altruism and idealism."
 
I am not at liberty to challenge one whose knowledge on a subject puts me at a disadvantage. Moreso than tongue in cheek is my unique way of placing facts in a manner not challenging or suppressing responses from anyone apriori. Sorry, just back from submitting for one of those National Science Foundation grants. They are killers, so I use WB to renew my strength.
 
Sure on overcrowding and violence. I don't even want to stay too long at a family member's house when I visit. Would a family feud or a tribal war eliminate the massive number of people to impact population growth as a war would? You put the root cause of war at people emerging from Adam and Eve being the first humans. I see evolution as the root of human existence and the atavistic tendencies of some humans as an example of our savage ape-like behavior.
 
 
Sunshine Kid Added Nov 8, 2018 - 6:58am
Opher - what we want from the UN and what it gives us are two very different things.  Yes, human rights - but the UN is governed by many governments, not just one.  Therefore, human rights will only get lip service, nothing more.

And I agree - good is far better than bad.  We are on the same page there.

PL - A good observation in a nutshell.  Kudos.  And I like the way you note that wars and population are interrelated.

Dr. Green - I sure hope you are not a medical doctor.  Wars are what happens when overcrowding happens, and "leaders" want more room to expand the population they control.  If you were a medical doctor, you would seem to be advocating for violence.
Dr. Rupert Green Added Nov 8, 2018 - 8:10am
@Kid. "Dr. Green - I sure hope you are not a medical doctor.  Wars are what happens when overcrowding happens, and "leaders" want more room to expand the population they control.  If you were a medical doctor, you would seem to be advocating for violence."
 
Please point a definitive sentence that generated your thought I am advocating war? Of your thesis, was America's massacre of the Iraque all about? -- President Bush flexing his disk?
opher goodwin Added Nov 8, 2018 - 9:09am
Sunshine - even lip service is better than nothing. We have a body with an agreed charter of human rights that highlights problems. If nothing else I think that is doing a valuable job.
I know it could do better but while the developed countries have vetoes I don't think it can.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 8, 2018 - 10:49am
Are you serious, Opher?  Without the founding members' vetoes, the UN might *never* conform with its charter.  Its charter and its ideals were wonderful, but its actions can never be better than its consensus -- which is weighed down by its many members who care nothing for the noble hopes outlined in its charter.  The label United Nations is a misnomer, because its members are not all united around its founding values.  Some are united around one thing, some around another.  These days, even the founding members cannot be counted upon to uphold its charter.  Even at its best, this organization can only serve those who are willing to pursue peace by discussion and consideration of differing viewpoints.  It becomes worthlessly impotent in the face of arrogance and intransigence. It was never intended to be a governing or legislating or policing body.  It hasn't the ability, neither constitutionally nor ideologically.  At most, it may field observers who can report back to the body of nations who may contribute forces and funding to form executive coalitions where extreme action is required against egregious violations of common humanitarian law.
 
In answer to Dr.Green, President Bush never conducted anything resembling "massacre" in Iraq.  Any such suggestion indicates an utter failure to understand the requirements and nature of warfare.  Rather, he exerted unilateral military action against a tyrant who had already demonstrated against his own people a willingness to employ chemical WMDs, and who was willing also to field them surreptitiously into foreign nations including and especially the US and its allies, including Israel.  And have you forgotten the SCUD missiles he fired into Israel?  Response to international threats of massive murderous destruction is one justification for war, including pre-emptive strikes. Thus a replacement of the tyrannical and internationally dangerous Iraqi regime was overdue. There are at least two other candidates in the region that deserve similar treatment, namely Syria and Iran. Currently, Russia has taken responsibility for trying to pacify a very uncivil war in Syria, and several Arab nations are considering how to form a coalition with the US to counter Iran and its subversive proxies.
Stone-Eater Added Nov 8, 2018 - 12:36pm


 and several Arab nations are considering how to form a coalition with the US to counter Iran and its subversive proxies.


 
 
Bullshit. Seven countries, mate. General Clark. But probably you never heard of that or quality it as propaganda. 
 
How do you excuse the US partnership with an open declared terrorist Wahhabia regime Saudi Arabia ? Man, you have no idea.
 
Stone-Eater Added Nov 8, 2018 - 12:38pm
BTW: Shave your beard. Otherwise you might get a reward for being part of IS...
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 8, 2018 - 1:14pm
The US has had a practical working relationship with Saudi Arabia for decades.  Wahabi Islam is strict, and bin-Laden was originally from Saudi Arabia, just as Arafat was from Egypt, but neither of these terrorist characters represented the governmental policies of these countries -- policies that have been known to shift along with political interests.  Are there problems trying to form such a coalition as has been proposed?  Of course!  Will powers and weaponry have to be balanced carefully in view of the future conditions in the region after this coalition disbands?  No doubt!  But I do, in fact, have some idea about the challenges involved.  On that other matter, have you never seen a religious Jew's beard before, that you should be confusing my image with those of ISIS members?  I would never have thought you so superficial, Stone. 
Luther Wu Added Nov 8, 2018 - 11:39pm
Yes Sir! Everybody doesn't like war, they say. Those who had their fill, more than most. Oh, well. It only took some of us over 40 years for the nightmares to stop.
 
I noticed the funniest thing, nearly 50 years ago, when the Big Green Machine wrapped its arms around me; those who made the most noise against the war, would typically advocate for the enemy. The bad old US should stop trying to make those enlightened, peaceful, kind and gentle Communists quit what they were doing. We had no business trying to defend an ally. The people of South Vietnam should also know that it was in their best interest to just lay down their arms and roll over.
 
Something else was funny about the whole "we hate war" people. They were advocating for exactly the type of power structure that made war inevitable; they wanted a system where the government had the most control and the people had little say, if any at all. The ones who would die had the least power.
 
Some things never change.
Sunshine Kid Added Nov 9, 2018 - 1:03am
Luther Wu, well put!
opher goodwin Added Nov 9, 2018 - 6:51am
PL - it shines a light and exposes crimes against humanity. If nothing else that validates it.
opher goodwin Added Nov 9, 2018 - 6:54am
Stone/PL - yes Wahabism is the sponsor of such huge extremism and Saudi is the State that is spreading the pernicious doctrine - thus terrorism.
opher goodwin Added Nov 9, 2018 - 6:56am
Luther - Something else was funny about the whole "we hate war" people. They were advocating for exactly the type of power structure that made war inevitable; they wanted a system where the government had the most control and the people had little say, if any at all. The ones who would die had the least power.
How do you possible come to such a conclusion.
Mircea Negres Added Nov 9, 2018 - 1:56pm
Opher, please forgive my bluntness...
 
As a former soldier who never saw combat but oddly enough saw plenty of death in peace time, I still say that war is a fucked up but necessary thing in which the uniformed uninformed, unwilling and unready go to fix the shit their elders have caused. Yeah, soldiers are used. That's what they're for, to be expended in an explosion of rage so that other people profit, and there hasn't been anything approaching a righteous war since Big Mistake Number 2, not that that one was much to write home about in terms of righteousness either when one considers how its foundations were laid at Versailles.
 
The moral of the sad, fucked up story? Join if you want to, fight when you have to, but have no doubts, you will be used like a condom- fucked then thrown away- first by a government that doesn't wanna know, and then by the citizenry which doesn't wanna pay.
 
As for legality, that's a sick joke perpetrated on the naive by those with the power to order around those who carry guns, because when you get down to it, how the fuck do you make mass murder legal?
 
I wear no poppy, red or white, I just listen to those who've been there, done that and found themselves in the fight, and if I can afford it, spend as much as I can on booze and whatever else will see these people's wounded souls fly straight.
 
Now for the funny part: I'm counting gunshots and sirens. Somewhere in Port Elizabeth, South Africa, there is a gun battle going on. Being a Friday, it's gotta be between the gangsters of the so-called Northern Areas and the cops who've been sent there by an African National Congress that's trying desperately to convince people it gives a flying fuck about them after ignoring their sorry asses for almost 25 years. And so the world turns...     
Stone-Eater Added Nov 9, 2018 - 2:02pm
Wow. Now I know why I never wanted to go to SA. Senegal is a lot quieter. But beware ! Americans are afraid of Muslim country, except when they're sent there to install democracy ;-)
opher goodwin Added Nov 9, 2018 - 2:19pm
Mircea - thank you for that. It was very educative. Fortunately when I stayed in South Africa I never saw any violence. It was one beautiful place with a lot of inequality.
Yes soldiers are used like condoms and discarded. It isn't good.
opher goodwin Added Nov 9, 2018 - 2:21pm
Stone - I've never had a problem visiting Muslim countries. I don't like Islam or the way they treat women but they have never hassled me - apart from vendors who want me to buy.
Mircea Negres Added Nov 9, 2018 - 2:30pm
Stone-Eater, while South Africa has some scary fucking violence, it's not a war zone. Still, I'm in an area that's more or less halfway between the rich and the poor, and by some weird quirk of acoustics get to hear gunshots and sirens from 3-4 kilometres away, where the heavy-duty gangsters live. Plus, it's a Friday, heading towards the festive season and elections around May next year, so the ANC is trying to show that after all the corruption and bullshit of the last 25 years, it cares about people it, along with the apartheid and British imperial administration have ignored since the 1820s. Fuck man, what else are the poor gonna do on a weekend they got no money to spend on booze, besides fire off a few rounds and kill some people? I know it sounds like war to you, but it's not. Think of it as a twisted form of entertainment- instead of a Roman father taking his son to a gladiator fight, a grown man counts gunshots and sirens.
 
Opher, yeah, it's like that- beauty amidst inequality coupled with the cold and unsparing reality of the system. 
Stone-Eater Added Nov 9, 2018 - 2:51pm
Oph
 
I don't like Islam or the way they treat women but they have never hassled me
 
LOL Western propaganda, my dear. Trust me. At least what concerns sub-Saharan Africa. Here the women rule - from husband's salary to the household and school stuff for the kids :-)
Stone-Eater Added Nov 9, 2018 - 2:55pm
Mircea
 
Shit. Sorry. I wonder to which degree Western banks and the IMF have their hands in there (together with the "government") to keep people poor. Paul Biya in Cameroon is probably their idol..... I never wanted to go go there because I think as a white guy I wouldn't last long - unlike in West Africa, where I feel safe (of course I'd never stroll around Lagos at 3am ;-)
Stone-Eater Added Nov 9, 2018 - 2:57pm
...sorry I meant going to SA. I have friends there but believe it or not - I've lived in so many countries, but SA - no. That's no quality of life to look back over the shoulder constantly in fear of someone trying to rob or kill you LOL
Luther Wu Added Nov 9, 2018 - 3:12pm
Opher said: "How do you possible come to such a conclusion."
-
How could you not?
It isn't the people who advocate for war, it is the people in power. The more power given to those in power, the more likely they are to send the rest of us to war, or the more likely the people are to suffer at the hands of their own government.
 
Sunshine Kid Added Nov 9, 2018 - 7:47pm
Opher -  "I don't like Islam or the way they treat women but they have never hassled me."
 
(and Stone-Eater)
 
I've been in Egypt (as far South as I ever got in Africa), and although they never hassled me, I did witness some hassling of others just because of what they looked like.  As an example, a clothing vendor, a man, was literally pushing the breasts of a woman to make them fit in a coat he wanted her to buy.  In Egypt, this appeared to be normal treatment of women, as I saw several varying degrees of such behavior in public.
 
And I know for a fact (because I was there) that even a common Western gesture could be construed to be insulting, and that led to a lot of stupid arguments.  Now, whether or not this same came about in SA, I cannot say, but I'm guessing that it probably could.
Stone-Eater Added Nov 10, 2018 - 2:59am
Kid
 
True. In Senegal I heard stories from black Africans how open racism against them is common in Tunisia and Morocco. So Egypt seems the same....
opher goodwin Added Nov 10, 2018 - 6:26pm
Stone - not in some of the places I've been. Women had no rights and were kept out of sight or made to wear the most ridiculous full-body costumes.
There is a clear misogyny.
Logical Man Added Nov 10, 2018 - 6:50pm
Ordinary people are sent to fight other ordinary people so that a small number benefit.
The men fighting each other have more in common than they have with those forcing them to shoot.
I've seen what war can do. My grandfather was terribly burned in ww1, my dad was crippled in ww2. My dad refused to buy a poppy. He served on a battleship in the Mediterranean and was involved in the battles that led to the Italian navy surrendering - shot at, bombed, torpedoed. He later worked on Enigma and is on the honor roll at Bletchley Park. He hated war and refused to glorify it by wearing a red flower.
Sunshine Kid Added Nov 10, 2018 - 8:33pm
Logical Man, I can relate quite well to how your grandfather felt about war.  I did NOT want to go to Vietnam, and actually managed for several years to avoid getting sent, but eventually, I had to go.
 
That said, however, I feel that wearing a poppy, any color, is to honor the military man/woman sent to battle, not the elite that, like Bill Clinton - a draft dodger, for example, whom I would never honor because my deep conviction that they are unworthy of such honor.
 
It is not to honor war, because war in itself is not an honorable thing.  Those that fought, died and endured incredible hardships, dangers and injuries/death are those that should be honored, nothing else.
Ward Tipton Added Nov 10, 2018 - 11:37pm
The UN, through the IMF and WB loan money to nations ostensibly for good, putting the nations in debt to the UN who then come in, largely through black ops run by a different certain "Poppy" in the US, and usurp the powers and assets and resources of those nations. 
 
Over half the world living in abject poverty. Nary a day without battles and wars. The UN is a farce on the best of days and blatantly criminal at its worst. 
Sunshine Kid Added Nov 10, 2018 - 11:47pm
Correct, Ward.  And the USA should get out of the UN, remove their presence from New York and sell that building to any private developer.
Ward Tipton Added Nov 10, 2018 - 11:53pm
Ultimate irony, selling the former UN headquarters to Trump? 
 
Poetic?
Sunshine Kid Added Nov 11, 2018 - 3:46am
That would be, indeed, Ward!
Stone-Eater Added Nov 11, 2018 - 11:22am
Ward
 
The UN, through the IMF and WB loan money to nations ostensibly for good, putting the nations in debt to the UN who then come in, largely through black ops run by a different certain "Poppy" in the US, and usurp the powers and assets and resources of those nations. 
 
Over half the world living in abject poverty. Nary a day without battles and wars. The UN is a farce on the best of days and blatantly criminal at its worst. 
 
*Clap clap*. And who's leading the UN ? The US. They can leave no problem, but then - every international organization the US leaves while still ruling the world with the US$ will make them more of a pariah. Not that they would care. But once in a while every country has to reflect about its standing in the world. Having no friends left and only a huge weapons arsenal isn't any gurarantee for coming centuries. 
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 11, 2018 - 11:26am
Sound to me like someone's been imbibing the conspiracy Kool-Ade. [:)]
Stone-Eater Added Nov 11, 2018 - 1:33pm
PL
 
Wahabi Islam is strict, and bin-Laden was originally from Saudi Arabia, just as Arafat was from Egypt, but neither of these terrorist characters represented the governmental policies of these countries
 
A bit late but anyway....I don't care if you like a haystack on your face or not, that's your thing. But if you want to tell me that people like Bin Laden can act without the Saud Family knowing anything - man, you're quite far out. 
 
Come to Africa and see where the Saudis put up Wahhabia shit mosques. 20 years ago I rarely saw a girl with a headscarf in Senegal, now it's regular.
 
Don't tell me bullshit, razor man.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 11, 2018 - 3:03pm
All I said, Stone, was that the Saud family was not Bin-Laden's sponsor, nor was he representing any policy of theirs.  He hadn't lived there for decades when he was running Al-Qaeda, much like Arafat's PLO was run from Tunisia rather than, say, Egypt.  You wanna criticize Wahabi-styled Islam, be my guest.  Likewise there is no lack of criticism due to Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations. But don't confuse causes, effects, motives, or policies of one with another or lump them all together. There is plenty of criticism to go around for each country and terrorist character without conflating one with another.
Ward Tipton Added Nov 11, 2018 - 9:04pm
*Clap clap*. And who's leading the UN ? The US. 
 
Close but no cigar. The banksters. You really think the US has that kind of funding? The US is a front organization and little more. Sad but true. 
 
The (Al) QAEDA movement was a US construct to battle the soviet forces in Afghanistan ... the name actually comes from the first initials of the five leaders originally recruited to start the organization, long before Bin Laden became the leader. 
Stone-Eater Added Nov 12, 2018 - 10:17am
PL
 
the Saud family was not Bin-Laden's sponsor, nor was he representing any policy of theirs.
 
Maybe there is no proof available, but it fits their agenda. They've been fucking up sub-Saharan Africa for ages - from Boko Haram to As-Shahab to Azawad.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 12, 2018 - 10:47am
Let's examine just one of your examples, Stone.  Boko Haram was founded in Nigeria by a Nigerian, and loosely aligned at one time with Iraq.  Where do you see the Saudis in this at all?  Sure, Mohamad Yusuf's studies of Islam led him to Salafi and Wahabi interpretations of Sunni Islam.  Are you blaming the Saudis because they also foster the Wahabi interpretation?  Isn't that accusing them of guilt by mere similarity, and not even by actual association?  Why would you not credit Boko Haram with independent mischief-making, based on an ideology that has been around for quite some time?  After all, there are all sorts of communists and socialists, all based on Marxist philosophy.  Surely you wouldn't presume they are all taking their marching orders from some single cabal located, say, in Russia?  Now, I haven't researched the others you mentioned, and I'm not really interested in keeping track of the numerous terroristic militias across the globe.  I don't believe they are all connected, despite many similarities in outlook and methodology.  Only a few of them are known proxies for countries like Iran.  The rest I would dismiss as gangs of thugs.  Now, don't presume that I have any interest in defending the Saudis, per se.  My interests are rather in logic and fact and justice.  Place blame only upon actual perpetrators.  There are more than enough of them to go around without involving additional parties without evidence of such involvement.
Stone-Eater Added Nov 12, 2018 - 11:24am
PL
 
Very good summary.
 
Boko Haram was founded in Nigeria by a Nigerian, and loosely aligned at one time with Iraq.  Where do you see the Saudis in this at all?
 
It's the ideologic connection. You see, I've been living in Cameroon approx 300 km where Boko Haram operates, and when you're in place you get to know stuff. My wife is from Mali, not exactly where Azawad operates, but it's not too far was well, there were attacks in Bamako a year ago. In Senegal, we don't have those problems (yet) because of the "Islamic confrereries" like TalibĂ© which are actually a strong force against jihadism and Wahhabia bullshit. But nevertheless the Saud influence is strong. They finance Wahhabia schools from Senegal to Chad. 20 years ago women wearing a Hijab were rare, now it has become common. It's a slow process, but I and a lot of my business and personal friends who are moderate Muslims, don't like that.
Stone-Eater Added Nov 12, 2018 - 11:28am
BTW: I'm not a Muslim. But let me tell you that being an atheist was never a problem for me in Africa. It simply provoked good discussions :-)
Stone-Eater Added Nov 13, 2018 - 12:30am
Smartacus aka William
 
Your remark about "a nation saving the world" is enough to know "wessen Geistes' Kind" you are. Google might be able to translate that.
goldminor Added Nov 13, 2018 - 12:50am
1+1 ..my father never talked about the war. However, with all of us kids pestering him every now and then he finally bought the Time Life book on WW2 which came out around 1955/56. It was mainly pictorial. It told the story though very well. I can still see some of those pictures after these many long years. He landed in Italy for the Italian campaign as a forward artilley observer. he and his 3 brothers all went to different theatres of the war, and all of them came home. The only wound among the group was a bullet crease across my dad's forehead, a lasting memento of the conflict.
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 4:18am
Logical - thank you for sharing that. I can understand how your father felt. I too feel there is an element in this remembrance day that is not right. War is obscene. It is only ever a last resort and is all too often deployed. The people who are involved are invariably damaged.
There is some jingoistic, celebratory patriotism in the way remembrance is carried out that jars with me.
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 4:19am
Sunshine - that is why I wear the white poppy. It respects the men who fought while protesting those that sent them.
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 4:21am
Ward - that is simply not true. The UN is a powerful force for international dialogue and condemnation of tyranny, war and infringement of human rights.
Poverty and war are both lessening and the spotlight is shone on wrongdoers. If it wasn't for the vetoes of the major powers much more would have been achieved. Their hands are shackled.
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 4:23am
Sunshine/Ward - perhaps it would be better if the US was not part of the UN. It's record of waging war and human rights has not been good. Without its veto the UN might be more effective.
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 4:25am
Stone - the Saudi's have a lot to answer for. They are transforming moderate Muslims into radicals propped up by the USA. Where's the sense?
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 4:28am
PL - Stone is right. It is the spread of the pernicious Wahabi doctrine with its extreme interpretation and intolerance that has sparked up Al Shabab and Boko Haram.
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 4:30am
Gold - my father saw active service in Italy as a dispatch rider. He too was uninjured and made it home. He too never talked about his experiences. He saw friends killed and some terrible things. It affected him. 
Doug Plumb Added Nov 13, 2018 - 4:38am
re " I presume you haven't visited Israel to observe personally how many UN organizations and personnel and vehicles are operating in Israel. What other states in the world do you know that have so many foreign organizations second-guessing and interfering with their government's administration? "
 
Its my understanding that one does not tour Israel without a guide. I presume this is so that visitors can be made to avoid the windows that have captured women from abroad being displayed as sale items. How does the UN react to this ? How did the UN react to another drone attack that killed three teenage boys? How is it that Israel has been permitted to operate the slave trade up until 2006 when the civilized world gave it up so long ago? Poor Israel - oppressed by the UN ? I doubt it.
Doug Plumb Added Nov 13, 2018 - 4:40am
Israel's best friend, the Saudi owned Saudi Arabia. I had a friend that guarded the Royal family. He would say the things he saw - presumably because Westerners are in no way psychologically capable of handling it.
Doug Plumb Added Nov 13, 2018 - 4:41am
*wouldn't say the things he saw.
Sunshine Kid Added Nov 13, 2018 - 4:50am
Opher, you said it - the UN has a dismal record, and I, for one, would be quite happy if the USA told the UN to mind its own business and leave us out of their conflicts.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 13, 2018 - 5:08am
The entire purpose of the red poppy, Opher, is to honor the veterans.  It is not to glorify any of the wars in which they served.  One cannot celebrate veterans until after the war that rendered them as such has ended.  Hence your entire protest with a poppy of some other color is entirely mistaken.
 
Moreover, without the US veto in the UN, along with those of its enlightened founders who attempt to maintain some sense of committment to its chartered principles (such as the UK), the UN would have been hijacked many times by the propaganda of the Arab/Islamic bloc to pass numerous egregious resolutions making false statements, particularly against the democratic member nation Israel that seeks peace and upholds human rights more than almost any other member of the UN.  The UN has been entirely subverted to the anti-Israel warfare which Arabs have been pressing therein for the entirety of Israel's existence.  Their pre-Israel anti-Jewish warfare in the region they have pursued for an entire century already.
 
Ward is incorrect about who is or is not running the show at the UN, but your polyanna-ish view of it as some bastion of rights and force for peace is likewise incorrect.  You seem to be oblivious to the damage that it has done on numerous occasions under the guise of "peacekeeping" that is not what it accomplished.  In previous posts I have described what it may accomplish at its best, along with its limitations vis-a-vis the multiple uncooperative aggressors currently rampant on the world's stage.
Ward Tipton Added Nov 13, 2018 - 5:08am
So let us get the UN out of the US and the US out of the UN and the world will be a beautiful place where everyone can sing kumbaya and roast S'mOreos over the Homefires that are kept burning? 
 
Sounds like a good place to start to me. Now what do we do with all the banksters who are in charge and how do we convince them to allow this to commence? 
 
Giving voice to peace does not make peace ... unfortunately I believe you would still find the world is a really nasty place with mankind ruling mankind. 
 
Oil For Food ... oh wait ... child trafficking in Darfur ... half the world living in abject poverty ... seventy years or more the UN has had and their record does indeed speak for itself. 
 
This reminds me of a Statist who tried to convince me that the current problems in Cuba were the result of the crony capitalist system ... that has been ousted since 1958. 
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 5:18am
Doug - I went to Israel last year. Didn't need a guide, didn't see any slave trade. Ho ho.
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 5:20am
Sunshine - I disagree. The UN has a good record considering the restrictions on it.
It shines a spotlight and represents a civilised agenda. The US doesn't like it because all too often it shines a spotlight on its actions.
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 5:24am
PL - no I am not oblivious to the mistakes, damage and lack of success of the UN in many theatres, but I am aware of its successes too. The wars that would have been, the tyrants who would have operated with impunity under the radar.
As for Israel - the Arab bloc is small. Israel has done some atrocious things. The UN does not just highlight Israeli transgressions it focusses on Arab ones too.
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 5:34am
Ward - nobody is singing Kumbaya. I'm pretty sick of this silly refrain that comes from all you right-wing people. The sixties was far from cosy and sweet. We had to go out on the streets to protest war and racism. It was ugly. The taste of teargas lingers. Justice is always well fought for.
The UN is nations - not bankers. It's affects, while not being anywhere as great as I would have liked, have still been good.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 13, 2018 - 6:00am
Your understanding of Israeli tourism, Doug, is entirely wrong -- as is, apparently, your understanding of any other conditions in Israel.  Tourists in Israel are often on their own, even when they contract with a tour guiding company to facilitate their trip.  Many return repeatedly and explore entirely on their own.  I meet such people quite frequently.

Your evocation of "windows that have captured women from abroad being displayed as sale items" is utterly libelous nonsense.  Israel is in the forefront of efforts to *combat* human trafficking; it has *never* operated any "slave trade".

You ask about UN reaction to a "drone attack"?  Are you oblivious to the fact that the Arab "teens" who were killed (29Oct) were in the process of laying explosives to destroy a security barrier to enable invasion of Israeli territory by militant fighters?  They were not collateral victims of some security operation; they were militant combattants.  I notice that you didn't ask about UN response to the example of three innocent Israeli teens who were kidnapped from a public bus stop, on their way home from a swimming pool, and murdered in cold blood by Arab terrorists.  This example is one of many that justify Israel's determined insistence that invaders from Gaza are stopped.  Israeli security forces and police are extremely careful to avoid collateral injuries while targeting real perpetrators of harm.  How do you think the UN reacts to police security operations in any other country?  Does it react at all, or does it rely on each country's internal governing bodies to monitor and control proper police and military defense procedures?
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 13, 2018 - 6:14am
The Arab bloc in the UN, Opher, is fully one fifth of its members and perhaps more.  That is not small.  That bloc is responsible for exaggerating anything unpleasant that Israel ever may have been forced into doing in self-defense, to call it an "atrocity", ignoring numerous real atrocities and downplaying them to prevent the UN from focusing any attention on them.  That bloc is determined to delegitimize Israel in order ultimately to wipe it out of existence without a peep from the UN or even with its tacit approval.  That places the UN far from neutrality or objectivity.
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 7:56am
PL - I think four fifths of the world is more than capable of resisting the Arabs. Israel needs to clean its act up then it wouldn't keeping getting condemned for its actions - illegal settlements, illegal occupation, unjust retaliation out of proportion.
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 7:57am
PL - Doug thinks that everything is a Jewish conspiracy and that the Jews should be wiped out.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 13, 2018 - 8:45am
And yet, Opher, you didn't hesitate to repeat three Arab lies. Israel's has legal rights to settle anywhere west of the Jordan river, as spelled out at San Remo in 1920 and its subsequent British Mandate for the administration of Palestine. Hence the settlements are not even slightly illegal, and there is no Israeli occupation at all of anyone else's nation or territory. It was allocated specifically for "close Jewish settlement" and national self-determination,  just as eastern Palestine, trans-jordan, was allocated for Palestinian Arab self-determination. The entire notion of an additional Arab state of Palestine west of the Jordan is nothing but a continuation of Arab attempts to grab land away from Israel ever since its inception in 1948. Further, defensive retaliation is not unjust, nor does Israel respond disproportionately. We do not seek to kill 10 Arabs for every murdered Jew, nor does the IDF strike indiscriminately. If more of those who attack us die than of our own citizens, that cannot be criticized. We should not be attacked at all, nor should we suffer any casualties at all from these unprovoked attacks. It is not "disproportionate" if only the aggressors are killed. It would be entirely unjust to suggest that the aggressors should be rewarded for their aggression by the deaths of an equal number of those they attack. That's not proportionality; it is utter stupidity. We are neither stupid nor unjust. Our internal security measures are also structured to preserve lives, not to treat anyone harshly. 
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 8:53am
PL - you are wrong. There is no entitlement to that land. There are many illegal settlements and land taken through war.
The use of force is OK is the retaliation is just and commensurate with that aggression shown to Israel. It isn't. Meeting stone-throwing youths with bullets is not justified.
Somehow a proper settlement needs to be worked out with compensation to families that were forcibly displaced and a recognition of both Israel and a Palestinian State. Unfortunately the hardliners on both sides are having none of it.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 13, 2018 - 10:31am
The first taking of land by force of war was done by the Jordanians to create the area they called the West Bank.  Israel took back this heartland territory of Judea and Samaria in 1967, again while defending its very existence. The national rights to this territory belong properly to Israel.  It was the Jordanian occupation that was patently illegal, especially as they expelled all its Jewish residents and replaced them with members of their own population.  Check the UN Charter to see the illegality of that action by an aggressor!  Contrary to all the surrounding Arab nations, that deny any rights for Jews to own property or live therein, Israel does not expel its Arabs and does recognize their property rights, even when documented only by somewhat vague descriptions in very old Turkish papers that could have been deemed to expire along with the Ottoman Empire.  Jews were forcibly displaced but in the past 50 years of resettlement that has been largely undone. Arab resettlement has been denied by the Arab states, while Israel resolved its refugee problems with its own efforts.
 
An additional Palestinian Arab state will not resolve any issues, but will become another Gaza with no Jews in it and a lot of militant anti-Israel hostility. The proper resolution is to resettle as many Arabs as are willing, from Israel to Jordan or one of the other Arab states from which their great-grandparents emigrated a century ago (their origins being recognizable from their family names), and to normalize the civil conditions of those who remain in Israel.  This normalization and resettlement could be accomplished within ten years, beginning as soon as the false Palestinian nationalist narrative is discarded.  Nonetheless, violent criminal militants and insurrectionists will continue to be met with overwhelming force until they cease.
 
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 11:04am
PL - unfortunately overwhelming force creates the Newtonian equal and opposite reaction. It goes on and on.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 13, 2018 - 1:49pm
War is not constrained by the laws of physics, nor is human behavior.  If it were so, police would never be able to apprehend criminals and prosecute them.  Do not fail to distinguish between attackers and those they attack.  The latter must defend themselves or die.  We Jews have been on the receiving end for millennia, and we've done more than our share of dying, thank you.  It's time the attackers get it thrown back to them in full measure.  In the past few days, Hamas has fired 400 missiles into southern Israel, not far from my own home and into the backyards of close friends.  Apparently, this is the Gazan rejection of an Egyptian-sponsored cease-fire proposal.  Only four years ago, they fired thousands of such missiles.  What would you propose as a "proportionate" or fitting response to eliminate this continuing intolerable aggression?  There is no negotiation that can meet the demands of their ideology, and they have repeatedly demonstrated during the past decade that the only reason they halt occasionally is to re-arm for their next wave of assault.  That, my friend, is one of the proper justifications for all-out war until the aggressor is no longer capable of continuing (full-stop!).  Woe unto those who ignore an implacable foe and advocate ignorantly for peacekeeping when there is no peace to keep.  They take upon themselves the guilt for all the casualties suffered while dithering instead of decisively acting to end the aggression.
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 1:52pm
PL - let the stats speak - almost 14 years since B'Tselem began tracking. Overall, the group has recorded 8,166 conflict-related deaths, of which 7,065 are Palestinian and 1,101 Israeli. That means 87 percent of deaths have been Palestinian and only 13 percent Israeli.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 13, 2018 - 2:49pm
Considering that these stats were all the result of Arab-instigated assaults, 13 percent Israeli deaths is 13 percent too many.  The instant that Arab aggression is terminated, this cause of deaths will cease immediately.  The solution is quite that simple.  Regrettably, the termination of Arab aggression will undoubtedly increase the toll similarly, but the voices of the innocent suffering in southern Israel right now cry out for decisive immediate action to do so.  The suffering in Gaza will be somewhat less innocent.
Stone-Eater Added Nov 13, 2018 - 3:49pm
Blablabla.
 
Bullshit. If the Jews have the right to have an own land, the Kurds have it, the Scots have it, the Inuits have it, the Lapps have it, the Basques have it, the....
 
There's no special treatment, buddy.
opher goodwin Added Nov 13, 2018 - 3:57pm
PL - proportionate!
Doug Plumb Added Nov 13, 2018 - 9:41pm
re (Lindasy) "The entire purpose of the red poppy, Opher, is to honor the veterans.  It is not to glorify any of the wars in which they served.  One cannot celebrate veterans until after the war that rendered them as such has ended.  Hence your entire protest with a poppy of some other color is entirely mistaken.
 
I agree with Opher here. Lindsay you are celebrating victimhood and servitude of the troops to the very banksters that you wish would lose power. Ultimately all political power comes form the barrel of a gun.
 
re (Proclaim Liberty) "Your evocation of "windows that have captured women from abroad being displayed as sale items" is utterly libelous nonsense.  Israel is in the forefront of efforts to *combat* human trafficking; it has *never* operated any "slave trade"."
Excuse me but it was on 5th Estate or 60 minutes or one of those shows, on mainstream. It fits with the Talmudic law which is how Israel operates. Its a Talmudic State. No separation of church and state in Israel. The practice was made illegal after 2006. You can check on wiki. No one has been charged.
 
re (Proclaim Liberty) re "The first taking of land by force of war was done by the Jordanians to create the area they called the West Bank.  Israel took back this heartland territory of Judea and Samaria in 1967, again while defending its very existence. The national rights to this territory belong properly to Israel. "
 
So what. Its halfway around the world and doesn't concern white Christians.
 
re (Proclaim Liberty) "Regrettably, the termination of Arab aggression will undoubtedly increase the toll similarly, but the voices of the innocent suffering in southern Israel right now cry out for decisive immediate action to do so.  The suffering in Gaza will be somewhat less innocent. "
 
I remember how this mechanism worked in grade school, it was always the little skinny guy that wound up hitting the bully first. Its a game little kids can think of but not one that most adults can see. Who benefits from all of this ? It happens for a reason - someone benefits.
Doug Plumb Added Nov 13, 2018 - 9:43pm
re "So what. Its halfway around the world and doesn't concern white Christians."
 
We white Christians (Westerners) are already paying you for the holocaust.
 
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 14, 2018 - 1:48am
If your assertion were to have any meaning, Stone, about no special treatment, then we would have to extend it to say that Arabs have no rights to the 22 states that they have already -- and certainly they have no rights to take away from the Jews the one little patch of land where they originated four millennia ago and developed a civilization that is still going strong. Do you understand how special that is, and how different from any consideration that might be offered to the Kurds, the Inuit, the Lapps, and the Basques? I don't quite understand why you included the Scots, because Scotland exists distinctively, more than, say, Lappland or Kurdistan. And as far as I know, no one is trying to evict them or take over their homelands. You are aware, I hope, that the modern Islamic Arab procedure has been to expel Jews from all territories that they control, particularly in western Palestine the ancient land of Israel. Perhaps they have realized that Dhimmitude doesn't play well on the world stage. Oddly, terrorism they seem to get away with. 
opher goodwin Added Nov 14, 2018 - 4:55am
A FIRST!!!  Doug agrees with me!!!
opher goodwin Added Nov 14, 2018 - 5:00am
PL - the UN has fully recognised the State of Israel. There is no problem with its recognition and right to exist from the vast bulk of countries. 
Even some Arab States have accepted this.
What needs resolving is the Palestinian problem. Once that is out of the way we can get back to normalisation. Both sides are intransigent and the perpetual violence, from both sides, maintains the status quo - one of aggression.
If Palestine was out of the way it would clear the way to deal with the Arab States who are making belligerent noises.
Doug Plumb Added Nov 14, 2018 - 6:11am
re "You are aware, I hope, that the modern Islamic Arab procedure has been to expel Jews from all territories that they control, particularly in western Palestine the ancient land of Israel."
 
You are aware Proclaim Liberty, I hope,  that both the ancient and modern Jewish procedure has been to undermine every society they enter and to slowly take over every institution in the society to shape the society toward Jewish supremism.
Doug Plumb Added Nov 14, 2018 - 6:12am
Islam and Judaism are both statutory. They are what their clerics want them to be, nothing more nothing less. No rational principles only greed and power at the top.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 14, 2018 - 7:24am
No, Doug, what you have written is utter nonsense and falsehood. Jews have never undermined any society or its institutions, unless that society is already corrupt and in need of enlightened improvement, and they have contribute nothing but the best of their intellectual capacities toward improving the world.  It is called the mitzvah of "tikun ha'olam" (repairing a broken world).  Jews have never claimed "Jewish supremism", though we have demonstrated our invaluable capabilites frequently.  Judaism is not run by clerics, though we do possess an ancient revelation of excellent societal principles that we try to live by, rationally.  There is no "top" where "greed and power" could subvert that.  Ours is not a hierarchical society.  Nonetheless, some Jews who have achieved commercial success and financial power may well be criticised for their failure to conform their business practices and products with the noble values of our civilization.  That is shameful, but it is not characteristic or typical; nor is it condoned.

But none of this has anything to do with what I wrote about Arab behavior against Jews during the past century and at present.  You're just spewing out an irrational deflection from the topic.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 14, 2018 - 7:25am
I agree with you, Opher, that the problems of Palestinian Arabs must be resolved by pursuing normalization.  If the false anti-Jewish narrative of Palestinian nationalism were out of the way, along with the militant violence it engenders, that normalization would proceed.  Arabs who are uncomfortable under Israeli sovereignty could be resettled elsewhere, and others who wish to remain peaceably and cooperatively could remain and become Arab citizens of Israel with the full civil rights that existing Arab citizens already enjoy along with all other Israeli citizens.  Normalization under Israeli sovereignty, however, is precisely what Palestinian nationalism has most forcibly resisted for the past 50 years.  The noises emanating most recently from surrounding Arab states have actually been less than supportive of the Palestinian violence and have sought movement toward normalization that acknowledges the potential benefits of partnering with Israel on matters of common interest.  Several UN bodies, on the other hand, have undermined Israel's historical connection with its land and holy sites by resolutions that falsify history and deny the Jewish connection altogether in favor of a supersessionist uniquely-Islamic connection.  These bodies have fostered the Palestinian nationalist narrative that is impeding normalization and problem-resolution.
opher goodwin Added Nov 14, 2018 - 7:47am
PL - it is certainly true that many Arab neighbouring countries have been fermenting trouble.
I would like to see a peace deal brokered  by the UN which addresses all the issues and puts the whole thing to bed.
That would be good for Israel, the Arabs and the rest of the world. I think there are extremists on both sides who do not want that to happen.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 14, 2018 - 8:07am
The UN is not a broker, Opher, and its history of resolutions against Israel demonstrates that it cannot even address the issues rationally.  Even the US cannot function as a broker.  It too, has failed despite attempts to do so.  The failure has had less to do with the US than with the Arabs who cannot relinquish the false narrative of Palestinian nationalism that supplants Israel either all at once or in stages.  The POTUS recently has been stating correctly that only the parties concerned can resolve the conflict by negotiating directly with each other.  No third party can improve on that.  But recently also it has been made clear in assertions by the PA that they actually do not represent any sort of good-faith intention to represent the best interests of Palestinian Arabs, but rather to prolong the conflict in order to pursue the replacement of Jewish Israel with an Arab "Palestine" in accordance with the false narrative that I have been decrying here.  I have a suggestion of my own that might resolve the conflict with unilateral actions by Israel, though it could be helpful if the UN and the US and the UK and other interested internationals would support it, to truly pursue the normalization I cited in my last post.
goldminor Added Nov 14, 2018 - 10:13pm
P L ...+10
opher goodwin Added Nov 15, 2018 - 8:59am
PL - I think the UN is perfectly capable of being a broker.
Proclaim Liberty Added Nov 15, 2018 - 9:36am
Have you ever tried to accomplish something by means of a committee, Opher?  Note that a committee of peers (such as the UN) is not the same as a team, which has a defined leader and a well defined plan.  Management cannot be accomplished by committee, and even the members of a team must be chosen for their willingness to apply their capabilities in service to the lead's plan. 
 
A broker is an authorized agent representing one side. A broker who tries to represent more than one side is subject to conflicts of interest.  As it is stated in Mt.6:4 of the apostolic writings: "No man can serve two masters; because either he will disfavor the one, and favor the other; or else he will hold to the one, and set aside the interests of the other."  A broker who claims utter impartiality is a liar who has his own views and agenda. Only a broker whose views and agenda are known and trusted by two conflicting parties can function on their behalf.  That is not a description of the UN relative to Mideast conflicts.
Doug Plumb Added Nov 15, 2018 - 7:21pm
re "No, Doug, what you have written is utter nonsense and falsehood. Jews have never undermined any society or its institutions, unless that society is already corrupt and in need of enlightened improvement, and they have contribute nothing but the best of their intellectual capacities toward improving the world. "
 
lol. You are delusional. Porn is 99.9999% Jewish. Black Slavery, ie "The Jewish Black Slave Trade". The Fed is honest. TV news is honest. Palestinian controlled press is giving us a bad narrative on Israel. You have been drinking the purple kool aid and never sought opinions that counter your own. What I said about Judaism being statutory is dead on the money. You don't know what you are talking about.
Doug Plumb Added Nov 15, 2018 - 7:24pm
Jews must really be Gods chosen people because no group of men acting in politic are anything that good, especially when guided by Lucifer and even when guided by Jesus.
 
Proclaim Liberty, what do you think of Jesus Christ?
The Owl Added Nov 15, 2018 - 9:52pm
Opher, I find your remarks about Nikki Haley to be disgusting, barbaric, even Neandrathalic.  Mysoganistic elephantine, and idiotic also fit.
 
You, sir are a bully and an example of a "red neck" at it's finest.
 
Your remarks, sir, have no place in civil discussion.
 
Perhaps if you spent more time opining about what you are for, you might find people more willing to engage inmeaningful debate.
 
Note to our esteemed host:. Is Opher's behavior something that you are willing to tolerate on your site?
 
If so, count me out.
 
 
 
 
Sunshine Kid Added Nov 15, 2018 - 11:12pm
The Owl:  I note with sadness your distaste of tolerance.  I may not agree, but that doesn't mean I shall be intolerant of honest opinions.
 
I do believe you just showed where your tolerance for open discussion lies.  As you said, "You, sir are a bully and an example of a "red neck" at it's finest."
 
Apply your statement to yourself and see if it fits.