Governing All The People! Compromise is the Essence! Inclusivity Is Essential!

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Governing All The People! Compromise is the Essence! Inclusivity Is Essential!

The major problem with democracy is that we are always ruled by a minority who impose their narrow dogma on everyone.

 

When was the last time that any government had a majority of the people voting for them? Has it ever happened? I do not think so.

 

If we take any election and take the whole electorate as a hundred percent even in a binary election, such as the EU referendum, it is a minority who wins.

 

The EU referendum had a 72.21% turnout. So the results were (rounded up):

 

27% – did not vote     35 % voted remain   37% voted leave

 

A minority of just over One Third of the eligible electorate voted to change the whole future of the country.

 

The last UK general election 2016 only had a turnout of 68%

 

32% – did not vote    29.2% – voted Tory   27.5% – voted Labour

 

Yet the Tory government, with the support of well under a third of the electorate, has a mandate to put in draconian ideology.

 

It is the same in the USA 2016 election:

 

61.4% turnout

 

38.6% – did not vote         28.3% – voted Trump        29.6% – voted Clinton

 

Trump got in on a minority vote with just over a quarter of the electorate.

 

This is democracy!

 

Whatever the outcome of an election the majority of the country are simply ignored.

This does not feel right to me. Surely the majority need to be listened to and their views taken into account,  and compromises sought?

 

What we are increasingly getting is division and hatred. What we desperately need is consensus and compromise!

Comments

opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 6:59am
Having a minority imposing its will on everyone without heeding the majority is a recipe for disaster - particularly when accompanied by arrogance, gloating and baiting.
FacePalm Added Oct 9, 2018 - 7:15am
You mean like the anti-Brexiters, who think to frustrate the expressed will of the electorate by REFUSING to exit, or requiring yet ANOTHER election (and no doubt, ad infinitum) until they get the results they want?
 
But this would be one of the many reasons why democracy was despised at the founding of America, and why it's form of governance was established as a Constitutional Republic; there is but little virtue in the opinions of the masses.  Lex Rex - the Law rules - must always take precedence over Rex Lex, even if the "Rex" takes the form of a majority; a tyranny of a majority is no less a tyranny because a majority "want" it.  After all, without a Rule of Law as a fixed barrier, 51% of any population could vote the remainder into slavery(or worse), couldn't they?
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 7:46am
Facepalm - well Brexit was a clear example of a botched referendum. The majority of the population wanted to remain. The campaigns were full of lies and misinformation. The majority of the population would vote to remain now - particularly having seen the real ramifications of leaving.
The referendum was brought in by Tories in order to hold the Tory Party together for an election. Cameron never for a moment thought it would actually happen. It only did because of a shock election result.
The Tories have run negotiations with more of a view of holding their own party together rather than the needs of the country.
But I would agree with you that referendums on matters as complex as this are simply appalling. The will of an ignorant populace can well be a tyranny.
But then so is the rule of a minority who seek to impose an ideology on the majority.
Personally I would like to see an end to this nasty division and a move to much more consensus politics. That requires compromises but ends up serving most of the people and not just a narrow minority.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 9, 2018 - 7:46am
Unless you don't like their opinions, or their guns, or their desire to be left the fuck alone, or their desire to not have to live around people that refuse to adopt the customs of their new country. 
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 7:49am
Jeffry - well I guess some people are not suited to living with other people. They should be isolated on their own somewhere where they won't be interfered with and won't have to put up with other Folk. Perhaps they could wander off into the wilderness and pretend to be Davy Crockett or John Wayne?
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 9, 2018 - 8:17am
well I guess some people are not suited to living with other people 
 
You guess? Get back with us when you have more than guesses. 
 
Prima facie evidence your silly assed ideas won't work.
 
Stephen Hunter Added Oct 9, 2018 - 9:08am
Great observation Opher! Regardless of the country it seems to be ruled by about 30% of the people.
My theory is that in any human cohort about 30% have a shoot first ask questions later mentality. And these are the people riled up enough to get out and vote, especially for a Populist leader who has told them exactly what they want to hear, which has a high degree of blame thrown in. 
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 9:22am
Jeffry - I fully concede that a minority such as yourself prove a problem. But then you always prove a problem within any system. As I suggested it is best to ship you out somewhere remote where you can only be troublesome to yourself.
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 9:26am
Stephen - I think there have been times when there has been more of a consensus style of politics. It seems to have greatly polarised lately which I think is most unsatisfactory. To have that minority gloating and lording it is unproductive. To have them replaced by a different minority who set about undoing everything and doing it a different way is just madness.
There has to be a better way doesn't there?
George N Romey Added Oct 9, 2018 - 9:51am
In the US our founding fathers never wanted a Democracy.  They feared mob rule.  Voter turnout is low in the US mainly as people don't see government very relevant in their life or not serving their needs.  As a result a minority of the people actually elect leaders.
 
We could force voting as other countries do but good luck with that in the US.  Moreover, should ill informed people be forced to enter a ballot box and randomly pull levers?
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 9:57am
George - I share your frustration. It seems that we are always going to be ruled by a minority - either a monarchy, dictatorship or a small group of people. 
It is how we deal with that which I feel to be important.
I would hope for more consensus and less acrimonious division.
 
Dino Manalis Added Oct 9, 2018 - 2:34pm
 Compromise is essential to adopt elements of the Right and Left while avoiding their extremes!
TexasLynn Added Oct 9, 2018 - 2:45pm
This just sounds like sour grapes to me.  You don't like the outcome so... not enough people had a say in the matter.  Have you ever made this argument on an issue that went your way?  I doubt it.  I really, really, doubt it.
 
I've never been one to care too much about the percentage of people participating in voting.  I reason that those who aren't participating are uninformed idiots.  I would further reason that uninformed idiots would vote opposite of me, so better they sit on their collective asses (arses) than go to the polls.
 
Opher >> What we desperately need is consensus and compromise!
 
Translation: "Can't we all just get along."
 
The lefts' definition of compromise is "Going to hell at half the speed they really want to."  So, no Opher, we can't; because you're not even remotely interested in compromise.  Consensus is just the excuse you've chosen... one you wouldn't give a rat’s ass about if everything was going your way.
Neil Lock Added Oct 9, 2018 - 3:02pm
Opher: Democracy is a failure. I heartily agree with you on that. As I've explained elsewhere, first it divides people into party factions, then the parties all converge in their outlook. And they all adopt essentially the same policies; policies designed to give the state more and more power, to screw good people, and to enrich themselves and their cronies.
 
We are always ruled by a minority who impose their narrow dogma on everyone. Absolutely right, Opher. For example, on the environment, where all the parties are signed up to the UN's green agenda, that seeks to destroy our civilization on the basis of no more than fraudulent accusations "backed up" only by dishonesty and lies. You can't get a much narrower or more evil dogma than that one. Can you?
 
The 37% for Brexit was, if I'm not much mistaken, the highest vote for one option over another (or others) ever in the UK. If you reject the legitimacy of that, then you must also reject the legitimacy of all the governments that have been elected; since 1867, at least. Including Blair’s government of 2005, which if I recall had the support of just 22% of those eligible to vote. 78% of us didn’t want Labour! Even besides those of us who find all politics distasteful and so didn’t vote, the combined votes of Tories and Lib Dems were 50% greater than the Labour vote. And that’s democracy? The rule of the people?
 
You want an end to this nasty division. Well, so do I. But you want a move to much more consensus politics. There, I think you’re wrong. You can never have consensus between people, who know they’ve been wronged, and those that wronged them. Not, at least, until the victims have been compensated for what they suffered.
 
I do detect, in your call for “consensus,” an unwritten rider of “as long as it’s a consensus I agree with.” I don’t think you are very even handed in the way you deal with your hot button issues like the environment. You are prone to walking back your extreme statements a little bit, but then next time coming out with the same extreme point of view. Let me ask a hypothetical question: Would you support a “consensus” that includes both (a) free immigration across borders and (b) repeal of all restrictions and taxes on CO2 emissions?
 
Actually, Opher, you have done us all a service here, by showing up a big problem with consensus as a means of making large scale decisions. In such a system, the most glib and persuasive will almost always win the day. A consensus system, implemented in a large society, will end up with power in the hands of exactly the same kind of snakes in suits that we suffer from today. Different snakes maybe, but the same problem. Consensus can, maybe, work in small tribes – as it has done in Africa. But among many millions of people? Not a chance.
 
Myself, I seek a governmental system that is decentralized, and based on the equal rights and obligations of each individual. Where there are no large scale decisions to be made such as “Leave or Remain?” or “should people with cars be forced to give them up?” Where such governance as there is delivers peace and justice, and otherwise keeps out of people’s way. Where there are no political states, and no arbitrary borders. And where there are no taxes beyond what is necessary to support this framework of minimal governance.
 
Wouldn’t that solve most of the problems you bring up in this article?
George N Romey Added Oct 9, 2018 - 3:12pm
We would be far better members of smaller nations.  These mega structures like the US, the EU and China are nothing more than breeding grounds for the rich, powerful and immoral.  
 
When I hear global government I see a planet made up of 90% slaves, around 5% what we might think as lower middle class and perhaps another near 5% something like middle class and the .01% living beyond anyone's dreams.  I hope I'm well dead if and when that happens.  
Katharine Otto Added Oct 9, 2018 - 3:22pm
Opher,
By your statistics above, the largest percentages (in 2 of 3 cases) voted "None of the Above" by not showing up at the polls.  If the majority were to rule, as in a true democracy, there would be a lot less government, a lot fewer laws, less crime, and lower taxes.  QED
Neil Lock Added Oct 9, 2018 - 3:25pm
TexasLynn: I reason that those who aren't participating (in voting) are uninformed idiots.
 
With the greatest of respect, Lynn my friend, when all the proffered options are bad, the only sane and honest response is to say "a plague on all their houses." To support the lesser of two evils, or even the least of three or more, is still to support an evil.
 
But I strongly agree with you about Opher's view of "consensus." :-) I've already stated my view in my comment, which crossed with yours. This could become a fun thread...
George N Romey Added Oct 9, 2018 - 3:34pm
Its not worth the effort.  Obama, Clinton, Trump, Bush(s)-their all the same.  Not to mention the Senators and Congressmen that somehow get to be millionaires on a $174K a year salary.
 
Its always the same drivel. We are going to reform Washington, make life better for our citizens, seize control of spending, blah, blah, blah.  And its always the same infighting.  Its nothing more than the McCoys and Hatfields, 21st century style.  And I should make an effort to support this?
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 3:53pm
Dino - compromise is possible on many things but it is always best to try for consensus in order to get a solution that is practical and lasts.
TexasLynn Added Oct 9, 2018 - 3:55pm
NL >> With the greatest of respect, Lynn my friend, when all the proffered options are bad, the only sane and honest response is to say "a plague on all their houses." To support the lesser of two evils, or even the least of three or more, is still to support an evil.
 
Agreed... so do exactly what I did in the last Presidential election.  Go to the polls and literally vote for "none of the above".  It was a civic duty.  Sitting on my arse was not an option considered.
 
I read your comment and think we're in agreement in figuring out OG's motives; as if that's very hard to do.  He's pretty transparent and consistent in his disingenuousness.
 
NL >> This could become a fun thread...
 
Let's psychoanalyze and label Opher as if he's not here. :)  I've always wanted to push his buttons to the point that he deletes me. :)  I could even go into Jeff Michka mode. :)
 
Who am I kidding nobody can out-arse the Michka.
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 3:57pm
Tex - Not sour grapes at all - just plain common sense. 
When I ran my school I invited representative in from teaching unions and nonteaching unions to work together to produce practical ways forward. It worked. It meant that I did not always get my way but the things we jointly decided worked well.
If only the US had done the same with issues such as healthcare they probably wouldn't be in the mess they are currently in.
Consensus means compromise but finding a viable solution that works for everyone.
The alternative is this division, distrust and extremism.
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 4:03pm
No Neil - it wouldn't. Unfortunately there are many huge global and national decisions that cannot be decided by little local groups who put their heads in the sand and pretend the big stuff isn't happening - which is precisely what you do regarding both climate change and environmental destruction. While you are debating in your little hamlet and getting on with your own life the big multinationals are robbing, exploiting and destroying with impunity on a global scale, setting up low wages, creating poverty, grubbing up rainforest, destroying environments and ruining the country.
There is indeed a flaw with democracy but hiding away from it doesn't solve it I'm afraid.
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 4:04pm
George - I think you've strayed back on to another post.
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 4:06pm
Katharine - and a terrible education system for most people, appalling healthcare, poor infrastructure, little social support and a division of the country into haves and have nots.
George N Romey Added Oct 9, 2018 - 4:07pm
Opher means well but he's just lost in this almost juvenile Woodstock love and peace pipe dream.  If the EU has taught us anything, its that big is not good.  It brings on those that have the power and influence to take everything for the taking.  And we would want what, to go global with this?
 
It was once asked on WB what would be the best form of government.  I replied a benevolent King that would provide the best for the human race.  We wouldn't have to do much but enjoy the largess.  However, benevolent Kings only exists in childhood fantasy books and movies.  
 
As far as Mika.  While I can give credit that at least Opher has his heart in the right place this Mika is nothing more than an Internet troll that has the IQ of a fig.  He writes like an 11 year old girl mad her boyfriend wouldn't sit next to her on the school bus on the way home.  
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 4:10pm
George - they are all far from perfect but they are not the same.
When you vote you make a difference.
I ran a school - under Labour the teachers were well paid, class sizes were small, the curriculum was wide. We had the money to do some great teaching.
Under the Tories the money was cut, salaries went down, good teachers left, class sizes went up, curriculum was reduced and great teaching went out the window.
There's the reality.
Every time one side gets in it chucks out what the other side has done. It's nonsense - time for consensus!
George N Romey Added Oct 9, 2018 - 4:18pm
Not in my book.  Some of are better bs artists than others.  In the end its all about their big money donors.  Let their big money donors stand in line to vote for them.  After all they bought them to begin with.
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 4:20pm
George - you're wrong.
Neil Lock Added Oct 9, 2018 - 4:32pm
Opher: many huge global and national decisions. Who sez? (Hell, even I am starting to imitate Michka :-)
 
If nation states didn't exist, there wouldn't be any national decisions. If there was no global organization like the UN, there wouldn't be any "global decisions." If instead there was a decent system of governance, anyone who harmed their environment - that is, the people around them - would be held responsible, and made to compensate the victims. What's not to like?
 
As to catastrophic human caused climate change and what you call "environmental destruction" (I presume you mean species habitat destruction), where is your proof, beyond reasonable doubt, that these things are (1) happening, (2) that the cause is human activities, not other processes, (3) require draconian "solutions?" More important to me is the destruction of our habitat - the personal and economic freedom which is necessary for human beings to survive and prosper - being done by criminal, political slime you support.
 
And as to multinationals, why should they be treated any differently from any other company or individual?
The Burghal Hidage Added Oct 9, 2018 - 4:33pm
Opher - I like ya man, we have fun, but seriously? You are displaying one of the most insidious and persistent traits of liberals/progressives/socialists the world over and it is this:
 
when things don't go your way you have a tantrum until someone - anyone - will listen to and agree with your way. Compromise in your universe means nothing more than " Be reasonable and do it my way. Or else."
 
You must know this, but I also know that you will never bring yourself to admit it: the reason why you HATE Trump SO MUCH is because you are used to everyone just lying down and taking your BULL SHIT, and he does not. He pushes back, and lo and behold all of the sudden there are a whole lot more people who say "you know what? I'm not taking this bull shit any more either."
 
To your credit, you are not a fair weather soldier. You are prepared to go down with the ship. Yes, some of us really do want NOTHING from your ship of fools. You go on and do what you please, just leave the rest of us the fuck alone. If that upsets you, well friend, you can just suck on the tail of my coonskin cap
Neil Lock Added Oct 9, 2018 - 4:39pm
Oh and by the way Opher, I asked you: Would you support a “consensus” that includes both (a) free immigration across borders and (b) repeal of all restrictions and taxes on CO2 emissions?
 
I'm still waiting for your answer. Yes or No?
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 5:19pm
Neil - and who is going to stop the multinationals operating? Who is going to stop the international criminals? Who is going to stop businesses from exploiting?
There will be a vacuum.
Who is going to build the infrastructure and do the big stuff - motorways, airlines, bridges, …..
Who is going to manage health, education, social care and maintain standards???
Who is going to stop invasions, war and unscrupulous dictators?
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 5:23pm
Neil - you read the reports from the thousands of scientists recording the destruction. I have travelled the world and seen the appalling destruction first-hand. I despair. You just live in a bubble. Rhinos, tigers, gorillas, chimps, elephants, hippos, orangutans and that is just the big stuff. I watched lorry loads of butchered animals go past in Zambia, stood in the remains of forests in Vietnam which were silent and bare, flew over great bear swathes of rainforest in Brazil which were recently rainforest - I did the same in Tasmania, Australia, Cambodia, Borneo and Peru. What does it take?
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 5:27pm
Neil - your idea of supporting those consensuses simply does not make sense.
A consensus is when a group of people sit down to decide how to solve a problem and come up with a compromise agreement they can all sign up to.
I would be happy to have such a meeting to solve overpopulation and the mass migration that results from it. Likewise I would be happy to address to find a way of reducing CO2 emissions. To continue polluting and creating climate change is insane and stupid. Deniers are bonkers. But there are many ways that would work. We have to find one that we can agree on.
opher goodwin Added Oct 9, 2018 - 5:37pm
Burger - I think you've watched far too many John Wayne and Davy Crockett movies for your own good. You've even taken to wearing the hat!
Trump is a bastard because he thrives on creating hatred and division and stirring up shit - witness the triumphalism of his last Kavanaugh rally. He's a prize cunt. He likes feeding his base and gloating at everyone else. He doesn't care about the effect.
He's a prize cunt also because of the his attitude towards the environment. He has blinkers on, just cares about money and does not give a shit about the impact.
If you can't see that then I'm sorry - there's no hope for you. I could go on about the other stupid policies on trade wars, taxation, allies, walls, terrorism, immigrants, Muslims and the rest. 
He is the purveyor of lies and misinformation.
In terms of consensus and compromise - they are all about facing up to the multitude of problems facing us and working together to find solutions.
Seemingly you want to ignore the problems, turn your back on them, let it all go to fuck - just as long as it doesn't affect you.
I think that is super myopic.
The sooner we get real, turn our back on the hatred and division, face up to things and starting working together to deal with them the better. This present partisan nastiness is catastrophic.
The Burghal Hidage Added Oct 9, 2018 - 6:53pm
I offered my help and I was rebuffed, so....yeah. It can all just go to fuck, as you say. We are well on our way. I REFUSE to assume responsibility for those who will take no responsibility for themselves. I have already raised children, not my job anymore. If that makes me a callous bastard, well....then I guess that's what I am. You seem to be able to live with who you are. Why should I be begrudged the same privilege?
The Burghal Hidage Added Oct 9, 2018 - 7:01pm
I no longer have any skin in this game, but that does not prevent me from handicapping the race. I know you don't like to hear it, but I WILL be proven right. The left is completely blinded by envy and rage and tone deaf to their own people. It will be their ultimate undoing, but they will not go quietly. I have formed my own alliance with the peoples who were here before the paleskins. I trust them more than I trust anyone else. This continent would still be a wonder if Europeans never arrived. But....it is what it is. I'll make the best of it until my end. There may be blood; there may not. I'm prepared either way.
A. Jones Added Oct 9, 2018 - 7:31pm
The major problem with democracy is that we are always ruled by a minority who impose their narrow dogma on everyone.
 
You would rather have dogma imposed by the majority upon the minority.
 
Why is that better?
The Burghal Hidage Added Oct 9, 2018 - 8:02pm
I don't know about the UK and not you personally Opher, but there is something about the left here in the US that you are not getting. They are still waving around a gun at all of us, threatening us with it, but they have forgotten something. We can count. We know that the chamber is empty, they are out of rounds. And they are only beginning to understand that the people are calling their bluff
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 9, 2018 - 8:08pm
Why should I be begrudged the same privilege?
 
Because you don't have the correct attitude doncha know. 
 
Off to the re-education camps you go!!!!! 
 
It's for your own good! 
 
The Burghal Hidage Added Oct 9, 2018 - 8:40pm
Can I bring my friends Typhus and Plague with me?
Jeff Michka Added Oct 9, 2018 - 9:26pm
Ah, sad ol Geeho R, the totally failed wannabe elitist takes more swipes at me, realizing his constant tear shedding and raving about elites is because he's not one of them and is too old, so never will be an elite  Writing this would piss me off.  I judge the frame of mind of the commenter as a more like "writing this would piss me off," so I guess I'm suppose to be all angry about Geeho's comments.  Note he's not denied he wants to be an elite, but as a total failure, he can't be.  Whose fault is that, Geeho, speaking of whining like a little girl?  Does you ex allow her former failure hubby, you Geeho, shame your kids by seeing them?  Did she break the door when she stormed out, Geeho, after one of your "Tears for Geeho sessions??  I personally like opher's stance on things, think you are a joke,  failed elitist Geeho. 
The Burghal Hidage Added Oct 9, 2018 - 9:36pm
Are you angry Jeff? It's hard to tell...seems to be your normal demeanor
Jeff Michka Added Oct 9, 2018 - 9:44pm
Nope, Domesday book.  I'll leave anger to you and your fellow rightists here, you folks are the experts.  Or did you want to hear how angry I am, stomping my foot, slamming the desk with my fist, and imploding over Geeho the Failed Elitist's comments.  You people think way to much of your impact on other people.  Go off, have a few big drinks, then go out and race wildly down a bad road in your car.  Hit a tree, spare someone by not hitting them head on.
A. Jones Added Oct 9, 2018 - 10:40pm
A minority of just over One Third of the eligible electorate voted to change the whole future of the country.
 
Like democracy in the U.S., democracy in the UK is based on "plurality", not "majority." Obviously, they're not identical.
 
"Plurality" = A candidate can win an election if he has more votes than any other single candidate. So if 90% of the population decides not to vote, and Candidate Smith gets 3 votes and Candidate Jones gets 2 votes, then Candidate 3 wins the election, since he had a plurality of the votes.
 
"Majority" = A candidate can win an election only if he has more votes than all of the other candidates combined. So if Candidate Smith gets 3 votes, Candidate Jones gets 1 votes, and Candidate Kennedy gets 1 vote, Candidate Smith wins: 3 votes > 1 vote + 1 vote.
The Burghal Hidage Added Oct 9, 2018 - 11:27pm
I dont drink and drive Jeff. I save my drink for when I'm parked. I am a lot of things. Stupid is not one of them
Ward Tipton Added Oct 10, 2018 - 1:21am
Just be reasonable and compromise by doing it my way! What could possibly go wrong? 
 
I never drink and drive, too many risks of spilling my drink ... and that is alcohol abuse of the worst form! 
Neil Lock Added Oct 10, 2018 - 4:27am
Enter your comment here...
Neil Lock Added Oct 10, 2018 - 4:53am
Opher: who is going to stop the multinationals operating? No-one; why should anyone want to? Unless they commit real crimes, of course.
 
Who is going to stop the international criminals? The same as will stop the national and local criminals. The framework of minimal governance, whose only functions are to deliver peace and justice.
 
Who is going to stop businesses from exploiting? Same answer. But a better question would have been, who is going to stop the politically active - including politicians, bureaucrats, crony "capitalists" and, of course, retired schoolteachers - from making and enforcing policies designed to harm and to exploit innocent people?
 
Who is going to do... all these good things? Whoever wants to! And reckons that they can make a profit out of it.
 
Rhinos, tigers, gorillas, chimps, elephants, hippos, orangutans and that is just the big stuff. Opher, can you put forward any hard, objective evidence to show that I have played any part in what you call "this appalling destruction?" I've never even seen a rhino, let alone killed one :-)
 
Deniers are bonkers. You have called me by that d-word before, Opher. It's not a nice ploy. The "bonkers" ones are the alarmists, that continue to spout their narrative of fear without even looking at the facts that contradict it. (Like, no measured overall global warming for around 20 years. Not much, if indeed any, detectable acceleration in sea level rise, either).
 
Consensus between parties is not possible if one or more of the parties is acting, or has acted, in bad faith, and the other party or parties knows that. And that's what we're up against here. What you call "partisan nastiness" is the inevitable consequence of this bad faith. And it is the political class - and their hangers on, including you - with their hype and their scares and their lies and their harmful policies, that are responsible for this situation.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 5:44am
Because Burger - there are bigger issues that need solving. They are affecting people and creatures right now and they will come back to affect your children and grandchildren. We should care.
The cruelty and destruction needs halting. I don't think we should turn our back on it.
No man is an island.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 5:47am
Burger - I don't know about this American Left. I never saw any left-wing in America. It is all remarkably right-wing.
What is this envy and rage?
My rage is focussed on the selfish greedy bastards who are destroying the planet and fucking everybody over.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 5:48am
A Jones - don't you read? I want consensus politics - not majority or minority rule.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 5:48am
Burger - you are wrong. You always have skin in the game.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 5:49am
Jeffry -useful and productive as usual.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 5:50am
Jeff - thanks for the endorsement.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 5:54am
Ward - consensus isn't about doing it anybody's way is it? It's about agreeing a way together. That's usually a compromise and, when it works, always better by far.
I think it's time we moved away from this daft adversarial politics into more consensual productive politics. This mad division is causing huge harm.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 6:00am
Neil - it is not hype, scare and lies - it is real.
The multinationals are committing massive crimes every day. They are scamming everyone, avoiding tax, exploiting on low wages and destroying the planet. Every single day huge swathes of rain forest are being levelled killing all the creatures in it.
Yes you are responsible. You live in a society whose wealth is directly the result of these actions. By living in it you condone it.
Sitting back in your little haven and saying I've never killed a rhino is simply not good enough. We'll all turn our back and pretend it isn't happening - or we could try and do something about it.
Stone-Eater Added Oct 10, 2018 - 7:32am
Hold it, Oph. In Switzerland there's no such thing as minority rule, except if you acknowledge the fact that economy rules in reality, otherwise, are the consumers a minority ? Because it's them who vote. Seen that way, bankers are government, not elected politicians.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 7:38am
Stone - well we could get into that argument about who really pulls the strings and there is a good deal to be said about that. I don't know enough on the politics of Switzerland and its political parties and what share of the vote they enjoy to really comment on the situation there.
The Burghal Hidage Added Oct 10, 2018 - 7:53am
your effusive reaction also speaks volumes. Again, it speaks volumes about you. I don't have to speak a word in favor of Trump. Rattle on, you make my case for me
George N Romey Added Oct 10, 2018 - 8:49am
Well then what's Opher's solutions.  Does he want mandatory voting, forcing a bunch of ill informed imbeciles pulling levers like a baboon? Or maybe we can just have a King and hope he doesn't beat us too bad as we slave for his royal court?  
 
In 2008 we elected what we thought was a man of the people.  Yeah a man of his buddies on Wall Street, academia, and corporations.  Even Sanders when the system that he railed against shafted him, Sanders became an obedient slave to said system.  I guess that his "political revolution" was nothing more than fantasy talk.  So much for changing the country.  Ergo, I've come to the conclusion a rotten system will only produce con artist so why waste my time.
 
Trump is nothing more than part of a cast of characters in a really bad play.
 
I see Mika as usual showed his ignorant self.  He should try to remember an old proverb-its better to be thought of as stupid than to open your mouth and prove it.
Ward Tipton Added Oct 10, 2018 - 8:57am
"I don't know about this American Left. I never saw any left-wing in America. It is all remarkably right-wing."
 
If the radical American left is right wing in his book, there really is no hope. 
 
You have incredible taste in music Opher, but the reality of the world we live in is that it is an ugly and vicious world and any kind of rule will always be nothing more than the "authorized" application of force by the rulers. The average person is far too apathetic to think that those in charge will be held to account, and subsequently, fail to even try to hold them to account. Those who seek the power will use it to gain more power and control over the apathetic. Those of us that object to being lorded over, will always be considered radical ... most especially by those that want to rule us and their lackeys that follow them, marching in lockstep with whatever the populist bandwagon happens to be piping out. 
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 9:43am
Burger - Lol - don't let my passion and fury get to you. I'm just full of disgust at the way creatures are being treated. I've seen far too much of it to take it lightly.
I don't see how you can interpret my reactions as being any justification of Trump and his policies though. 
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 9:45am
George - it's not rocket science - confront the big issues and get some consensus on how to tackle them.
I'm sick of this mass of fake news and division.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 9:53am
Hi Ward - having lived in the States many moons ago I was very shocked by the right-wing views of all the people I associated with. It seemed to be endemic. And having lived in both Boston and LA I would have thought that both of those would have been more left leaning that other places.
However there has been many years that have passed. Maybe things changed.
Yes there is a lot of apathy. You can see that in the figures I published in the article.
This resentment of 'big government' and being 'Lorded over' is a very American thing. 
In reality we have government to enable society to work. That's the job of politicians. We are better working together.
Now I can see that many of your politicians seem to have too much power and be too arrogant with it and many are in the pay of their big business masters, but it is still a system that, in general, works. 
I would suggest we need to make it worth better.
Doug Plumb Added Oct 10, 2018 - 10:09am
"Neil - you read the reports from the thousands of scientists recording the destruction."
  Neither have you Opher. Who wrote these reports? Those scientists or a panel summarizing the results? What do actual scientists say ? You have to listen to the actual climate scientists involved in the research in their own unfiltered words. They all say AGW is BS. Everyone has caught on except you Opher.
  The world will never be right until we have the UN and its kittens and puppies running things, after that, humanity will live forever after in peaceful harmony.
  You are incredibly naive, even if you were a twenty two year old, you would still be naive. You have these idealistic views and they seem legit to you so you think they are legit. You place your own beliefs above all else. BH is just being downright friendly, and telling you, as a friend. He is giving you could advice. You should take heed, because in a battle of wits between you and him would have you unarmed.
  You have not read the works you claim to have, you do not understand what Nietzsche was trying to tell us. Nietzsche was warning us about people like you, and atheism, and what it leads to. He was saddened by that fact that the monster in men will be awakened and set free upon society as a whole. Kant just expected his readers to understand that.
  Humility is necessary for wisdom. You cannot have one without the other.
  You should read the works you claim to have read.
Doug Plumb Added Oct 10, 2018 - 10:13am
  re "In reality we have government to enable society to work. That's the job of politicians. We are better working together.
Now I can see that many of your politicians seem to have too much power and be too arrogant with it and many are in the pay of their big business masters, but it is still a system that, in general, works. 
I would suggest we need to make it worth better."
 
  You have absolutely no idea about what you are talking about here. It is the law that is the power. You stand in a court room before a judge, not a politician. The court is the bank. Money and law are the same goddammed thing. Politicians are under the money powers, they swear an oath not to attempt to rise above it.
  Trump is lucky if he can decide what color socks he wears in a press conference if he is standing behind a full podium.
 
Ken Added Oct 10, 2018 - 12:26pm
Because people choose not to vote, the minority rules and that is a failure of the system? (I won't even point out that we aren't a democracy because we have constantly observed facts have little relevance to issues in your mind)
 
That is a silly premise.  In fact, in America only land owners were allowed to vote.  Only people with "skin in the game" were allowed to vote, so to speak.
 
You show 30% of people don't vote, but what are their demographics?
 
In reality, as America stands today, only those who actually pay income taxes should be allowed to vote.  If you have no "skin in the game", you shouldn't be allowed to vote.  People vote for people promising them free stuff.  Close to 50% of Americans pay no income tax.  They almost unanimously vote democrat.
 
This does not mean that republicans ignore them or don't care about them, it simply means the promise of free stuff without effort is a lot more comfortable than "we will give you a hand up so that you can have some self-dignity and the ability to find employment".
 
Once people realize it is in their best interest to vote for stuff for themselves, the entire idea of the founders goes down the drain and is unsustainable.
Katharine Otto Added Oct 10, 2018 - 12:26pm
Opher,
Not much different from what we have now.
George N Romey Added Oct 10, 2018 - 1:45pm
Exactly Katharine. We have a bunch of over educated elites supposedly doing the work of humanity.  This includes an assortment of characters from government, central banks, world organizations, etc.  Opher rails against them yet he thinks that by giving them more global power somehow they will start doing for the "common man."  Or some illusion that we if take a bus driver from Queens, New York, a tool and dye maker from Leeds, a math teacher from Tokyo, etc. somehow they could effectively lead the world to peace and prosperity.
 
Life is not a 1960s Woodstock tune sung to a bunch of stoned pie in the sky hippies.  The same generation that soon gave up and advanced the big corporate agenda may I remind him.  
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 3:06pm
Doug - the problem is that Americans have been bombarded with false information. The rest of the world is not so deluded.
We see all the reports about the devastation and we know it's true.
I'm afraid it is you that is basking in a delusion. Travelling the world I have seen the effects with my own eyes.
This is a very sad state of affairs.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 3:07pm
Doug - of course they do.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 3:09pm
Ken - an interesting idea. Only those who pay income tax should be allowed to vote. Why not follow it through to only those landowners. Or even those with a million dollars in the bank. That would sort out the hoi polloi. 
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 3:11pm
George - you simply do not listen or understand. It is exactly the opposite of what you are spouting that I am for. I want those global elite controlled. You just seem to want them to get on with it.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 3:15pm
Why is it that Americans seem to have adopted this attitude of disbelieving in any of the major problems facing us? According to them there is no climate crisis, no overpopulation, no major species extinctions and the multinationals can just carry on as they are. Who cares about tax. We don't need education or healthcare.
I find it boggling.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 3:18pm
Katharine - what I want is a lot different to what we have now. I want people working together to solve the problems not parking themselves in camps, pretending there aren't any problems and putting out fake data to prove it. Not one camp busy sniping and bombing the others, building up hate and division and solving nothing.
TexasLynn Added Oct 10, 2018 - 3:39pm
Opher >> Why is it that Americans seem to have adopted this attitude of disbelieving in any of the major problems facing us?
 
Because of all the dumb-asses that came before you (60s,70s,80s...) who pushed the same crap (dooooooommmmm) and the same solution (soooociiialism) if we didn't change our ways.  We didn’t, and the world just kept right on spinning with the dates given for our demise coming and going.
 
Opher, according to guys like you (a few decades ago) we should by now all be popsicles (from the ice age), burnt to a crisp, treading water, elbow to elbow, and living without fossil fuels.
 
There is nothing new under the sun, Opher.  There will always be leftist pushing some doom and gloom scenario with the solution always being the diminishing of the individual and dominance of the collective.
 
Why is it America is so disbelieving?  Because we can smell bullshit a mile off.  I find it boggling the rest of the world can't.  Because it's the same bullshit you leftist have been shoveling for about the last century. 
 
That’s why!
George N Romey Added Oct 10, 2018 - 4:57pm
Opher "who" is the "who" that is going to control global elite?  They already own the political system and the politicians of all parties have zero desire or intention to rewrite the rules.  The one guy that talked about a political revolution, Bernie Sanders, ran like a little girl when the Democratic Party machine swung an ax at his head.  Trump beat the establishment because he's close enough to know how to exploit it and had the money to do so.
 
The only way this narrative ever changes is with a massive system fail like we had in the 1930s-actually far worse.  You do realize that FDR had originally planned to use "pro business" means to solve the growing Depression.  Luckily FDR was able to understand just how dire the situation was in 1933, and even at that he often gave big business want they wanted.  An FDR in today's deep state will never be successful.
 
A total system fail that would hurt the .01%.  Unfortunately that means death, destruction, deep misery and hell particularly for the bottom 90%.  This has been decades in the making.  There is no tooth fairy ready and able to right the system in a way that you think it can be done.  
 
You are totally clueless to who the elite are.  You think its Donald Trump? Think again.  
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 5:49pm
Tex - good grief - you really think that we are not in the midst of an environmental crisis. I don't know about smelling the bullshit. You've been swallowing it.
The world is in a stinking mess. That is for real. Extinction rates are through the roof. Something needs doing.
I think you guys need to travel more. You live in a tiny bubble.
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 5:54pm
George - for fuck's sake - Trump is the establishment. He couldn't be any more establishment. 
The wealthy global elite who control it all include Trump. You don't really think he's one of the people do you? An anti-establishment figure?
And you dare to call me naïve? Unbelievable.
I do not think that controlling that set of greedy, selfish bastards is going to be easy. But either you try or you accept that they are going to continue their plundering until it's all destroyed.
And no - this system fail, this revolution, is all a silly pipe-dream. They are not about to let that happen - not for an instant. The national guard and army will see to that.
Doug Plumb Added Oct 10, 2018 - 5:55pm
@ Ken re "In reality, as America stands today, only those who actually pay income taxes should be allowed to vote. "
 
Do you think the income tax "pays for the roads" ? It pays for the New World Order. All your other taxes pay for "the roads".
 
The problem we have, at its core, is that people pay the income tax.
Doug Plumb Added Oct 10, 2018 - 5:56pm
re "We see all the reports about the devastation and we know it's true.
I'm afraid it is you that is basking in a delusion. Travelling the world I have seen the effects with my own eyes."
 
How do your eyes deduce the fact that weather changes occurred before man was on the planet? Dinosaurs farting?
opher goodwin Added Oct 10, 2018 - 6:07pm
Doug - there were many and varied reasons for climate change in the past ranging from volcanic activity, solar output fluctuation and asteroid collisions. 
None of those are responsible now. This is the one we are doing ourselves.
I do think you are stuck in a rut. You need to start thinking.
A. Jones Added Oct 10, 2018 - 6:25pm
Trump got in on a minority vote with just over a quarter of the electorate.
 
No, Trump won a majority vote of the Electoral College, which is the only vote that's relevant for determining who becomes POTUS.
 
The reason majoritarianism ("consensus" as you pretend to call it) doesn't work is easy to grasp if you only expended some mental effort on the issue:
 
From the standpoint of any one, unique, individual voter, he or she senses (correctly) that his or her own vote will have zero effect on the overall result of the election. Thus, he or she has little incentive to "Get Out the Vote".
 
Factions — Special Interest Groups — however, have lots of incentive, since they are ideologically and financially committed to voting in concert as a single "bloc". Thus, under your naive, silly ideal of "consensus", there is always a tendency for individuals to drop out of voting altogether, and for others to band together into factions, special interests, blocs, and "parties."
 
You live in fantasy-land, Goodwin. That's the reason your ideas always fail when legislators attempt to implement them in the real world.
Ken Added Oct 10, 2018 - 6:28pm
the problem is that Americans have been bombarded with false information. The rest of the world is not so deluded.
 
You are absolutely deluded to believe that Americans are the only ones being bombarded with false information
Ken Added Oct 10, 2018 - 6:36pm
an interesting idea. Only those who pay income tax should be allowed to vote. Why not follow it through to only those landowners. Or even those with a million dollars in the bank. That would sort out the hoi polloi.
 
As I noted, originally it was only land owners who could vote.  but now you are making false comparisons, per usual.  Having Skin in the game doesn't mean only those with a million dollars in the bank or are rich.  The top 10% of income earners pay 84% of all taxes.  I am not suggesting they get some disproportionate amount of representation.  Someone who pays $1 in income tax has some skin in the game. 
 
the 47% that not only pay no taxes, but a vast majority of them get money and other benefits back from the government should not and MUST NOT be the ones deciding monetary policy.  They tend to just vote for the person who will "give them the most stuff".
 
That fact that you consider that to even be remotely acceptable shows how completely out of touch you are with economics or basic representative government.
 
This doesn't mean they get ignored, but it does mean they don't have a say in how other people's wealth is redistributed.
 
Who knows, if they feel aggrieved enough, maybe it will actually make some portion of them feel the urge to go out and get a job.   Contrary to what the left would have many believe, there are millions of available jobs in America that are open right now and don't require college degrees.  Many of them are good paying as well.  A short time at a trade school or learning how to drive certain heavy equipment can make you suddenly 6 figures a year with just a few months training.
 
Why should someone who pays no tax, gets a check for the government determine how other peoples taxes get distributed?  I thought you were all about fairness.  There is nothing fair or reasonable about that
George N Romey Added Oct 10, 2018 - 6:37pm
Trump is a pimple on the ass of the global elite. He’s always been a wannabe and probably thinks he’s a disrupter. The global elite can and would dispose of Trump in a nanosecond if he ever did become a real challenge.
Ken Added Oct 10, 2018 - 6:52pm
you really think that we are not in the midst of an environmental crisis
 
No, we are not in the midst of an environmental crisis nor are we in an overpopulation crisis..  It is wealth redistribution tripe expected from a socialist.
 
Every model ever devised has FAILED.  we have a little over 100 years of actual temperature data 200 years or so in non-remote areas in a world that is billions of years old.  Sorry, that isn't a large enough sample size to prove ANYTHING.
 
Anecdotal evidence is meaningless.  How do you know that isn't a natural cyclical thing in whitening of the reefs.  You continually fail to note that extra CO2 in the air is causing the greening of the earth and many desert areas that were unlivable are now livable.
 
The earth is a very self determinant ecosystem complex enough to adjust itself.  Even massive oil spills like the one we just had in the gulf we found the earth has micro-organisms that actually thrive eating oil and they helped clean up large parts of it they were certain would pollute for decades.
 
We have a small window of knowledge into a very large universe of possibilities, yet alarmists (which, unshockingly) are mostly socialists and/or statists (or scientists who's entire career is based on government grants) insist they know so much that it is "settled" science.
 
Well, the earth was once flat.  The earth was once the center of the universe, and on and on all used to be "settled" science.  even a 100% consensus does not make something true.
 
 
A. Jones Added Oct 10, 2018 - 7:28pm
you really think that we are not in the midst of an environmental crisis.
 
"HELP! HELP! The sky is falling because of automobiles and other evil technologies! We need world government to regulate every aspect of our lives because government bureaucrats are wise and good (otherwise they wouldn't be in government) and private individuals are evil (except Bob Dylan). HELP!!!!"
 
(LOL!)
Jeff Michka Added Oct 10, 2018 - 7:41pm
Ah, ol "tears,tears, tears" Geeho, calls me stupid, but then I'm not the one coming on WB and conning [people into "feeling sorry for poor Geeho."  Of course youo and some others would really like to silence me.  You are so lame, you actually project your inabilities and insecurities on me.  Bzzzzt!  You still we never be an elite, Geeho.  The elites you claim to hate would be your best buddies if they welcomed you into their ranks.  Don't worry, they never will.  Why not just tell evryone you just want to be an elite, and more to point, you want membership in "The Deep State."  Best go and cheer on alll your buddies here, you need 'em. 
Bill H. Added Oct 10, 2018 - 10:23pm
 
Oph-
Many here on WB will simply continue to deny the obvious as they only believe what they are told by their greedy "heroes" and what makes their simple existence here on Earth comfortable for their short "ride".
It's all about the money and who has the most toys at the end of the ride. Fuck their fellow man and fuck nature, because it's all about them.
Nothing else.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 10, 2018 - 10:38pm
Any 5th grader can tell you he who dies with the most toys is dead. 
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 3:39am
Alex - you state the obvious and portray it as superior facts. Obviously haven't understood the post.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 4:34am
Ken - I'm not stupid enough to think that we aren't all bombarded with false information - it's just that many of us are able to discern which is which. When you've travelled the world extensively and seen the environmental damage, exploitation and poverty first-hand, you know it's true.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 4:35am
Ken - same principle.
Go back to before they had one man one vote - dump women while you're at it. Play the capitalist game for them.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 4:37am
George - Trump is as much one of them as any of them. He plays the same game. It's obvious to anyone with half a brain. They don't dump their own until they become a liability.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 4:49am
Alex/Ken - you seriously need to wake up and grow up. You also need to travel more and see what is going on in the world out there. Get out of your silly bubble.
Over 50% of invertebrates and vertebrates have been wiped out in the last 40 years and you don't think that's a crisis?
Wake up.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/21/human-race-just-001-of-all-life-but-has-destroyed-over-80-of-wild-mammals-study
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/sep/29/earth-lost-50-wildlife-in-40-years-wwf
Or don't you do real news? - Just right-wing garbage. I could put up a hundred such reports from a range of different sources and I can back it up with my own observations.
This politicisation of a serious issue is stupid.
Likewise overpopulation. If you had walked through the hovels in Africa, Asia and South America and witnessed the squalor, disease and abject poverty, the housing conditions, pollution and congestion, the misery and exploitation, the environmental catastrophe as nature is hacked back and all animals killed for food, for sheer desperate survival, you would not be so silly as to come out with glib political garbage.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 5:11am
Bill - you are exactly right:
 
It's all about the money and who has the most toys at the end of the ride. Fuck their fellow man and fuck nature, because it's all about them.
Nothing else.
 
All they care about is their own life and fuck the future, fuck their grandchildren, fuck the other creatures we share the planet with.
All they accept as truth is the garbage put out by their right-wing propaganda machines - everything else is left-wing plots.
I find it pathetic, selfish and myopic. If it wasn't so tragic it would be risible.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 5:11am
Jeffry - very profound.
Neil Lock Added Oct 11, 2018 - 6:01am
Opher to Ken: I'm not stupid enough to think that we aren't all bombarded with false information - it's just that many of us are able to discern which is which.
 
Over 50% of invertebrates and vertebrates have been wiped out in the last 40 years.
 
Opher, last time I looked no-one could agree, even within a few million, how many different species there are on this planet. So to say that "50% have been wiped out" is pure hokey. And "humans have destroyed 83 per cent of wild mammals" is even worse. If you read the two Grauniad articles you linked to, you ought to be able to detect the bullshit easily. Unalloyed propaganda from the World Wildlife Fund. (It used to have its headquarters in my town - ugh). Phrases like "the anthropocene" or "eat less meat." And then there are numbers that, if you put them into a simple calculation, tell you that there are less than a billion individual wild mammals on the planet (?!) When there are reckoned to be 81 million rats in the UK alone, and about 7 billion world wide. And that's just one species!
 
When I see something new, I take the trouble to evaluate it as independently and objectively as I can. That's exactly what I did with the "global warming" scare back in 2008 - I spent a month of evenings going backwards and forwards between alarmist and skeptical sites, working out which side I trusted. And I came down on the skeptical side, because I noticed that the skeptics almost always gave rational answers to questions, whereas beyond a certain point the alarmists stopped arguing facts and started attacking the person instead. And just this morning, it took me only about 5 minutes of googling to uncover the Grauniad's pile of bullshit on the number of wild mammals.
 
I reckon I have a pretty decent bullshit meter, Opher. You are the one who needs to do a bit of fact checking on what you allow yourself to believe. Besides which, to decry other people's views as "right-wing garbage" - as you did to Ken and A. Jones - isn't going to give you much chance of achieving any kind of consensus with them on anything, is it? Isn't it ironic that the individual who started the thread with a plea for compromise and "inclusivity" has shown himself, on the very same thread, to be an intolerant bigot?
Steel Breeze Added Oct 11, 2018 - 8:17am
@Neil Lock,well put.....
The Burghal Hidage Added Oct 11, 2018 - 8:34am
Liberals know how to say the right things, talk the talk.....such as "seeking consensus". That is what they say, but they have no interest in consensus. The first act in their play is manipulation.  Determine the premise ( don't let anyone else do it first!), establish the narrative and the language.  When that does not work to silence any opposition the next step is obfuscation/misdirection (muddy the waters). 
when this fails then there is the tried and true truncheon of intimidation, the favored riding crop of tyrants for time immemorial.
Its the Alinsky school, direct descendant of the Frankfurt School. This is the poison that infested British academia in the 20s and 30s, producing the generation of leaders who gave you the NHS and all of the other wonders of IngSoc.
Consensus out of the mouth of a liberal is just an inconsequential set of syllables that do not actually mean anything. It is only a tool that they will use on their way to their true objective, which is the elimination of any opposition.
 
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 11, 2018 - 8:37am
has shown himself, on the very same thread, to be an intolerant bigot?
 
Not at all unusual for leftists. They're better than everyone else in their own little lizard brains so that attitude always shines through.
Michael B. Added Oct 11, 2018 - 9:09am
I think I just coined a new term - Biglefttoleratenot irono Idiohypocranus smasheth upthefuckus - Big-left-tolerate-not Idiot-hypocrite-anus-pulverus, whose head I want to test my steel with. Seems translatable in many other languages.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 9:11am
Neil - I just quoted you two that came from the first source that came to hand. There are hundreds.
Yes it is true that not all species have been identified. That is irrelevant.
I have personally been involved with population counts. That is standard biology. When you have done repeats of this in tens of thousands of locations you build up an accurate picture of what is going on worldwide.
Personally I have walked through jungles in Africa and Vietnam devoid of life because the locals eat anything that moves. I've revisited habitats from my childhood that are now devoid of life. I have been all over the world and witnessed huge deforestation in Australia, Tasmania, Borneo, Brazil and Vietnam.
My personal first-hand observations tally exactly with the experts evaluations.
Your denials really sound pathetic and extremely uncaring.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 9:12am
Steel - I think you flat earthers will carry on denying what is shouting in your face until you are standing knee-deep in water and every living creature has been murdered.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 9:16am
Burger - a bit of stereotyped nonsense if ever I heard any. The NHS for instance knocks the socks off anything going in America. 
This is absurdity. Consensus means working together. Why try to twist it to suit your agenda? You merely help maintain the division. There are big problems that need addressing and they are not going to be solved by this partisan baiting.
Steel Breeze Added Oct 11, 2018 - 9:17am
I shall,thankfully,be long gone by then.........and I believe your concerns are genuine,but,folks who are free-willed can only be swayed to one side or the other by cold hard data.....not emotion...
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 9:17am
Jeffry - lucid and erudite as usual.
Steel Breeze Added Oct 11, 2018 - 9:36am
...and as you can see, i have no silly nicknames or labels for you,or any other.........on the other hand...."flat earthers".......mirror time...
TexasLynn Added Oct 11, 2018 - 9:53am
TBH >> Liberals know how to say the right things, talk the talk.....such as "seeking consensus".
 
Right on the money, TBH.  Note that Opher seeks "consensus" only when things don't go his way.  He could prove us wrong by linking to one of his post where he sought "consensus" under other circumstances... BUT such a post does not exist.
 
Anyone gullible enough to fall for the left's (yes Opher left's) consensus ploy should go read the fable of the Scorpion and the Frog.
Jeffry Gilbert Added Oct 11, 2018 - 10:18am
Your denials really sound pathetic and extremely uncaring.
 
There's more of that leftist tolerant virtue signaling.
 
George N Romey Added Oct 11, 2018 - 11:21am
There can be no "world agenda" because the parts of the world see the world differently.  Who should rule?  Should we tell China they better start paying their workers the same wages paid in the West?  Do we tell the Middle East to lose the burkas?  Do we tell the Indians they better damn well make sure all cities have modern sewage?
 
Suppose the Chinese told Opher's "world government" to piss off? We do what, bomb them?  Halt China from exporting their products?  Tell the Middle East lose the burkas or we send in the troops?  Actually we did that.  That worked out really well.
 
This is nothing more than some ex hippie wanting to relive his youth.  Well let me explain about Opher's "generation of love."  They all got haircuts, joined the corporate world, destroyed the unions, tore apart the New Deal and became a bunch of greedy assholes willing to throw their neighbor in economic hell for a buck.  
 
I've heard more intelligent talk from a 5 year old talking about the tooth ferry.
Ken Added Oct 11, 2018 - 1:31pm
We do what, bomb them?
 
That would actually please Opher and his crowd, probably.  The myth of Overpopulation is right up there on their list with the myth of Global Warming
Ken Added Oct 11, 2018 - 1:37pm
This politicisation of a serious issue is stupid.
 
Yes it is, so stop politicizing it and pretending there is an alarmist issue when there isn't.
Ken Added Oct 11, 2018 - 1:40pm
When you've travelled the world extensively and seen the environmental damage, exploitation and poverty first-hand, you know it's true.
 
I have traveled the world extensively  Don't make assumptions about people you know nothing about.
 
You CLAIM to be a scientist.  You should know the difference between anecdotal evidence and empirical evidence.  anecdotal evidence (which is what you provide right there) is proof of NOTHING
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 2:59pm
Just ride the steel breeze.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 3:01pm
The tooth ferry - I presume that's a big boat for shipping teeth across stretches of water?
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 3:03pm
Ken - you are plum nuts. 
There's no global warming
There's no overpopulation
There's no environmental devastation
There's no species extinctions
The Earth is flat
And everybody's happy.
Katharine Otto Added Oct 11, 2018 - 3:38pm
Opher,
I think the essence of our disagreement is that you believe in top-down solutions, while I believe in bottom-up ones.  If people aren't engaged in their own salvation, they will create so much drag on any attempt to bring them into the fold that they will sabotage the effort.  The people you blame for current problems--the elite--have gained their advantage from force and deceit, but their tactics are wearing thin.  People really are waking up and realizing they can't depend on the old gods to rescue them from their own gullibility.  
 
I think the bluster of the Trump wannabes hides a desperate search for relevance in a fast-changing game.  With federal debt spiraling out of control and no good solutions from the government in sight, it's looking more and more like we're going to have to eat some crow soon.  At least crow is not genetically modified, at least so far.
 
George N Romey Added Oct 11, 2018 - 3:59pm
Katharine most of the world is an evil, hideous place.  Its been that way since the dawn of man.  Its easy for people of developed countries to forget how most people on this planet live.
 
Trump is nothing more than a cast characters coming along claiming he has all the answers to what ails the public.  The truth is our government is too broke and too dysfunctional to offer anything but back to back circus shows.  Eventually there will be some kind of reset.  What comes after it?  Who knows?
 
There are no white knights coming in to rescue the world as Opher might like to think so.  And there never has been other than the ones in fairy tales and the fake ones presented in our text books.
 
Maybe one day in the distant future the world will change.  But who decides that world?  Opher seems to think that all people think like him.  
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 5:40pm
Katharine - I believe in both top and bottom. I believe that the only way to control the global elitists who are busy messing the whole world up is to regulate their behaviour. They are out of control and causing immense destruction in pursuit of their next billion.
In terms of everyone and their lives in the small arena I would like to see small - with a say in what goes on locally.
But I want high quality education, health care, infrastructure, policing, defence, social services, social support and workers rights for everybody.
opher goodwin Added Oct 11, 2018 - 5:41pm
George - that simply is not true. I have travelled through many third world countries and the vast majority are pleasant, friendly and helpful. Only the desperate cause trouble.
Ken Added Oct 11, 2018 - 6:34pm
Interesting How the EU is the 3rd largest increasing CO2 in the world while US is #1 at decreasing in the world and yet we are being lectured about our output (could it be because we are the wealthiest country in the world?  Certainly not!  This is nothing about wealth redistribution!
 
As the UN puts out another ludicrous global alarmist report on the climate
 
https://www.dailywire.com/news/37021/no-global-warming-isnt-end-world-heres-why-ben-shapiro
 
I can understand you not liking the messenger (Ben Shapiro) but the report and the charts that are there are what they are regardless of his opinion or conclusion
Doug Plumb Added Oct 11, 2018 - 7:17pm
Ken re "No, we are not in the midst of an environmental crisis nor are we in an overpopulation crisis.. It is wealth redistribution tripe expected from a socialist."
exactly.
Ken re "That would actually please Opher and his crowd, probably. The myth of Overpopulation is right up there on their list with the myth of Global Warming"
And he can't see that. They are the mass murderers and torturers of history.
re "Liberals know how to say the right things, talk the talk.....such as "seeking consensus". That is what they say, but they have no interest in consensus. The first act in their play is manipulation. Determine the premise ( don't let anyone else do it first!), establish the narrative and the language. When that does not work to silence any opposition the next step is obfuscation/misdirection (muddy the waters).
when this fails then there is the tried and true truncheon of intimidation, the favored riding crop of tyrants for time immemorial.
Its the Alinsky school, direct descendant of the Frankfurt School. This is the poison that infested British academia in the 20s and 30s, producing the generation of leaders who gave you the NHS and all of the other wonders of IngSoc.
Consensus out of the mouth of a liberal is just an inconsequential set of syllables that do not actually mean anything. It is only a tool that they will use on their way to their true objective, which is the elimination of any opposition."
Worthy of repitition.
Opher wants authority to rule. I want law to rule.
 
Doug Plumb Added Oct 11, 2018 - 7:29pm
re "Ken - you are plum nuts. 
There's no global warming
There's no overpopulation
There's no environmental devastation
There's no species extinctions
The Earth is flat
And everybody's happy.  "
 
A cheap shot, and no longer in vogue.
George N Romey Added Oct 11, 2018 - 7:36pm
Opher you must not have had real conversations with people.  I did.  The rich in 3rd world countries?  To them its just the laws of nature.  The poor?  Most accept it as a fact of life.  None really want change and are not interested in "western value."  And you are going to change this how?  
 
We tried to bring "democracy" and "modern values" to backwards countries in the Middle East.  How's that working out?
 
The desperate?  The elites will crush them in a second.  Look at what your beloved hero Obama did to the OWS movement.  Funny I don't remember any criminal bankers going to jail but I saw lots of unemployed thrown out of their homes. And by the way, I was one of them.  I was homeless living in a shelter for nearly a year.
 
So save your hippie speeches, lover power for the other stoned over the hill hippies.  No one in power is ever going to allow for a global government that does good.  I learned the brutal way that I'm on my own and nothing will be changing anytime soon. 
A. Jones Added Oct 11, 2018 - 7:45pm
Over 50% of invertebrates and vertebrates have been wiped out in the last 40 years and you don't think that's a crisis?
Wake up.
 
You wake up, fool.
 
Try this during your morning cup of coffee (or tea, or whatever fuckwits like you drink at breakfast):
 
Ready? Here goes:
 
NAME THE 40% OF SPECIES THAT HAVE SUPPOSEDLY GONE EXTINCT!
 
You can't. Neither can The Guardian article. Neither can the WWF.
 
You can name Andy-the-Ant and Harry-the-Hippo, and half a dozen others; but given the fact that we only KNOW about 1.2 million vertebrate species, and that there are probably another million or so vertebrate species that we don't know about, the WWF nonsense, as well as the propaganda article promoted by the leftist UK rag, "The Guardian", amounts to nothing more than bullshit modeling: extrapolating to 40% of ALL vertebrate species based on the observed decline of just a few. Sorry, but that's junk science.
 
No wonder you believe it. You're a junk scientist.
 
What about the observed increase in the vertebrate species that we know about but which you don't happen to like: cows, pigs, chickens, cats, dogs, farmed fish, etc.? Don't include those in your statistics because they call bullshit on your claim about a 40% decline in ALL vertebrate species.
 
You're a twit, Goodwin.
Ward Tipton Added Oct 11, 2018 - 9:38pm
"I believe that the only way to control the global elitists who are busy messing the whole world up is to regulate their behaviour."
 
And who, that can not be bought off, will "regulate" their behaviour? 
 
You forgot polar bears. 
 
Please explain the continued climate "disruption" on Mars that parallels that of the earth. 
 
If humanity were perfect, there would be no need for governance. As long as humanity is less than perfect, government will be less than perfect. 
Ken Added Oct 11, 2018 - 10:03pm
 You forgot polar bears. 
 
hah!  I was thinking exactly that myself.  One of the biggest lies of the alarmists.  They are doing better than ever and are actually overpopulated right now.
 
"I believe that the only way to control the global elitists who are busy messing the whole world up is to regulate their behaviour."
 
who's to say what behavior is appropriate?  That is subjective as are most items you wish "regulated" opher.  Not everyone has the same feeling you do about what is appropriate and what isn't.  This thread alone should have shown you how many ways you are wrong, but I know, it won't matter.  You are locked in to your false ideology, and you will pop in in another week or two with another virtually identical post with the same globalist complaints.  You complain about elitists, then you want elitists regulating and deciding what is appropriate and what isn't for the entire world.
 
This is socialism in the extreme.  Totalitarianism and the very essence of collectivism.  we decide what is best for you, your personal beliefs are irrelevant.
Katharine Otto Added Oct 11, 2018 - 10:19pm
Opher,
For an atheist, you seem to have an unlimited faith in those hypothetical "regulators" who will control the elite.  And, these universal systems, like education and health care, that you want are based on whose standards of excellence? 
 
I have serious doubts about both education and health care as we know and practice them in the West.  Are we to deny some African bush people their versions, if perhaps they develop systems that work for them?  For instance, artemesia, an herb that alleviates symptoms of malaria, has been known for centuries in Africa, but modern pharma has only recently discovered it, has patented a manufactured form, and has converted vast tracts of former food farms to artememisia farms for profit.  Is this your version of progress?
Ken Added Oct 11, 2018 - 10:34pm
Are we to deny some African bush people their versions
 
Katharine, he believes in overpopulation and believes that most of Africa should basically be wiped out because of their own ignorance, thereby helping to solve the "overpopulation" dilemma.  I am sure he would have no problem with "bush medicine" vs. western technology that will save lives.  Millions wouldn't die fit the DDT lies.
 
Malaria was virtually wiped out just like smallpox has been before "the great lie" by Rachel Carson
 
But hey, the "elites" in the western world were saved, so to hell with Africa and the other 3rd world countries,right Opher?  That solves your Over Population complaint, doesn't it?
 
This is the kind of guy that wants a global government to decide things like this.  who deserves to live and who doesn't - gee I wonder who will be decided on the life scale vs the death panel?
Bill H. Added Oct 11, 2018 - 11:03pm
Children - can you possibly carry on a conversation without all of the defamation and name-calling?
WB is beginning to remind me of elementary school
Neil Lock Added Oct 12, 2018 - 6:53am
Opher to TBH: There are big problems that need addressing.
 
The biggest of all these problems is those that try to make out that there are certain big problems, yet provide not a shred of hard, objective, verifiable evidence that these problems are as real or as big as they make out. And when someone disagrees with them, instead of trying to prove their points with solid facts, they call their opponents nasty names like "deniers," "flat earthers" or "plum nuts." Or label them "selfish," "myopic," "pathetic" or "uncaring." Or accuse them of spreading fake news or swallowing bullshit. But such accusations could just as easily (and far more aptly) be levelled in the other direction.
 
As I suggested to TexasLynn early on, this has become a fun thread :-)
Doug Plumb Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:11am
A. Jones, did you ever see the Guardian article on the 99% of scientists that believed in AGW? I started to go through the list given, I found their backgrounds.
  Most were biologists and business administrators, people that can always say "we got bamboozled too" and escape professional shame by not actually having any knowledge of atmospheric science.
 
re "The desperate?  The elites will crush them in a second. "
 
Elites order us to destroy ourselves, they don't fire any rounds, throw anyone innocent in jail to protect a political agenda, or poison the air, water and food. They get us to do it to ourselves, leading the pack doing the actual destruction are the ignorant, the Ophers of this world.
Doug Plumb Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:12am
Maybe Opher is playing devils advocate.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:15am
Ken - so you are saying that it's all about money. We can cope with the disasters. The growth pays for it.
And what about the environmental impact?
What about the effect on the world's poorest who bear the brunt of it? 
Will you start bleating about the refugees and mass migration?
It is not the money.
the money is the problem.
BTW - good to see the US doing so well at reducing CO2. Are these figures preTrump?
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:21am
George - cut this hippie crap eh? I'm not peddling silly dreams and the sixties counterculture is obviously something you haven't got a clue about apart from sucking up the silly media portrayal. It makes you sound daft.
I speak as a biologist who has studied fauna around the world and seen the massive impact. I read the scientific reports and I'm pig sick of this right-wing propaganda masquerading as facts. It's pathetic. And you know who's behind it? The very ones you rail about who are after screwing the planet to make an extra billion bucks or two.
And yes - I did talk to the people on the street in those countries.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:23am
George - BTW - I don't think that bombing the fuck out of people is analogous to bringing democracy and Western values.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:24am
Ward - I don't expect governance to be perfect. It never is and it never will be. We have to fight to make it acceptable. It is, even at its worse, better than no governance.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:27am
Alex - you imbecile. I did not say 50% of species, dimwit. I said 50% of vertebrates  and invertebrates- that's by number. That is drastic reductions in population size that will put many previously common species into the rare bracket and others in threat of extinction.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:29am
Ken - please do not be silly. It is exceptionally easy to see what behaviours are acceptable. It is not rocket science. Mass pollution, deforestation and destruction of habitat are glaringly obvious.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:37am
Katharine - I don't particularly have great faith in our rulers. I just know that the alternatives are thousands of times worse. I hear some of the glib silliness put forward by some on WB about having a revolution to kick out the elite and know they haven't a clue. The misery, death, terror and mayhem of such an event would make our current travails pale into insignificance.
Those who advocate violence as a solution are part of the problem not the answer.
I also know that the elite rampaging round unhindered at the moment are doing immense harm and need stopping.
As to modern medicine - it works. Life expectancy goes up and up and languishes in those places without it. Malaria, which you cite, is a massive killer and the local remedies are sure not working. There are some remedies to be found in folk medicine. We need to investigate and take them on board. But if it came to me choosing for me and mine between Western medicine or folk medicine I know which I would go for.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:39am
Ken - of course I believe in overpopulation. Anybody with half a mind can see the gross effects of overpopulation. It is destroying nature, polluting and causing mass poverty, mass migration and misery. Get out of your cocoon.
It is not dealt with by killing people. I have already laid out clear proven pathways for dealing with the problem.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:40am
Bill - I believe I recently put up a post asking if intelligent debate was still possible. Seemingly not.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:46am
Neil - if you think that not a shred of evidence has been put forward I think you are deluding yourself.
https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/09/1409030-animals-wildlife-wwf-decline-science-world/
It is quite clear that you wish to pick and choose what you believe and choose to pick information from bogus sources.
I suppose the National Geographic is a left-wing propaganda machine now.
Ward Tipton Added Oct 12, 2018 - 8:16am
So again, it still boils down to how to keep those in power held to account for their actions. Answer that one and you may actually build up a support base. 
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 9:38am
Ward - yes it does. I'm not someone with all the answers but I think it can be done.
to start with I think we should have complete transparency. Those standing for office should have their bank accounts open to the public and all their business videotaped for public scrutiny. The whole of their lives should be public so that we can see nothing underhand is going on - no shady deals, no secret alliances.
Secondly I would take business and money out of the equation. No lobbying, funding of parties or elections. All campaigns to be run off limited public funds.
Thirdly I would put a period of time aside, probably five years, where someone leaving office would not be able to take a role in other business that was related to their role in office or could be seen to be as a result of relationships forged during office, or on a higher pay than what they were earning in office.
For a starter that might deter those who were doing it for personal gain and attract those who wanted to serve.
Ward Tipton Added Oct 12, 2018 - 10:32am
At least it is a start in the right direction. 
 
I would also add an ombudsman program that, like jury duty, is mandatory for civilian participation. Among its many duties would be policing laws, the enforcement of those laws, egregious government behavior ... 
 
Add in placing all the holdings of public servants in blind trust accounts and having them live in public housing. 
 
Maybe that is the discussion that should be taking place if solutions are the goal? 
Neil Lock Added Oct 12, 2018 - 11:18am
Aha, Opher, so you've moved the goalposts now. You said, Over 50% of invertebrates and vertebrates have been wiped out in the last 40 years. A. Jones interpreted that as "Over 50% of species have been wiped out in that time." A perfectly reasonable interpretation of what you said, in my view. Now you say, it is over 50% of the populations. Why didn't you say that in the first place, to avoid any confusion?
 
I gave you earlier an example where the Grauniad made obviously wrong allegations about animal populations. And since all animals must be either vertebrates or invertebrates, even if you exclude bacteria you are telling us that the population of ants (10 million million according to https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/11/03/141946751/along-with-humans-who-else-is-in-the-7-billion-club) has more than halved in the last 40 years. Where is your evidence for that claim?
 
I suppose the National Geographic is a left-wing propaganda machine now. Maybe so, maybe not. But the article you referenced had "-wwf-" in the link. And the WWF is, very definitely, part of what I call "the big green myth machine."
 
And I'll add "imbecile" and "dimwit" to the list of nasty names you have called people on this thread. Rather than castigating A. Jones, you ought to apologize to him for not being clear enough in what you said, and so causing him to misinterpret it.
Ken Added Oct 12, 2018 - 11:20am
I read the scientific reports and I'm pig sick of this left-wing propaganda masquerading as facts. It's pathetic. And you know who's behind it? The very ones you rail about who are after screwing the planet to make an extra billion bucks or two.
 
Look, I can pull crap out of my ass too opher!
Ken Added Oct 12, 2018 - 11:34am
It is exceptionally easy to see what behaviours are acceptable. It is not rocket science.
 
"acceptable" is  not an objective viewpoint.  You keep saying you are a scientist you all you ever do is give s ubjective opinions and try to masquerade them as "facts".  "I'm a scientist, so if I say it it must be true" is simply bullshit.
 
Mass pollution, deforestation and destruction of habitat are glaringly obvious.
 
No, they are not.  Again, not empirical but anecdotal.  Yes there has been massive deforestation, but there has also been massive greening of previously uninhabitable areas.  Mass Pollution has reduced by 90% or so in the past 50 years in the western world.  Go complain to China and India.  the world is a complex ecosystem. If they don't get on board the rest barely matters.  Many habitats are being preserved - at the cost of humans I might add.  Some of the most fertile land in the world - the central valley in CA is being forced into drought conditions and farmers going broke because politicians in San Francisco would rather protect endangered tadpoles than feed people.  This story is repeatable all over the USA where habitats are there to protect this squirrel or that bird at the expense of humans.
 
You are nothing but a classic "degrowther".  Your alarmist OPINIONS are just that and have no basis in fact.  Just like your global warming alarmism that has NO basis in fact.  Not a single model has ever proven accurate.
 
You talk about mass starvation - it isn't due to lack of food or resources.  Capitalism has led to the most prosperous, healthy, well fed population on earth there has ever been.  Look to your socialism and those corrupt leaders you want to force upon the rest of the world with your crappy "globalism" rants to determine why so many populations aren't being fed.  There are tons of humanitarian food shipped that governments refuse to distribute because they would rather control the population than feed them.
Bill H. Added Oct 12, 2018 - 11:55am
Opher -
Many of those out here are simply told what information sources to believe by both the present administration and their recommended sources as well. I'm sure National Geographic is on their "fake news" list, as are now many reputable sources like Forbes, Business Week, and USA Today that don't always agree with their Corporate Commandments.
Many so-called "information" and "news" sources simply mirror what other like sources present, and only supply links to sources that match their agenda. We constantly see what sources the usual WB'ers rely on and supply links to when it comes to proving their "facts". It's all about their favorite modes of defense. Constantly deny, deflect, distract, dismiss, distort, divert, defame, divide, discredit, discount, dulcify, and dismay.
Another favorite tactic is to invent a crisis as a diversion, and then blame it on the other "side". Childish at best. Seems the latest "counter" out here is to deflect and deny the obvious racism that exists in the party and accuse their "enemies" as the "real racists".
It's all about remaining in the comfort zone, taking the easy ride, and not having to deal with the real issues or the consequences of stupid decisions.
Ian Thorpe Added Oct 12, 2018 - 1:39pm
Bonaparte said there are two kinds of soldiers, sheep and goats, sheep have to be driven but goats are intelligent and can be led. (I'd better mention that Jesus also said something about sheep and goats or someone will tell me I got it wrong.)
It seems to me we have a shortage of both drovers and leaders. But if we could drive the sheep to the polling booth, they'd probably think it was something to do with Stricly Come Dancing and vote for the bloke who played Cat in Red Dwarf. The goats on the other hand would take one look at May and Corbyn (or whoever the candidates were in their country,) and think, "What? I'm not voting for these idiots. What happened to Screaming Lord Sutch? (Sorry non Brits, you will not have heard of that particular folk hero, think someone like Ralph Nader but with a million times more laughs.)

My own preferred solution to the problem is to abolish political parties so our elected representatives are only accountable to the voters in their constituency and vested interests cannot buy influence. Oh, and we should put the sheep into curries. 
Neil Lock Added Oct 12, 2018 - 1:52pm
Bill H: Constantly deny, deflect, distract, dismiss, distort, divert, defame, divide, discredit, discount, dulcify, and dismay.
Another favorite tactic is to invent a crisis as a diversion, and then blame it on the other "side".
 
You're spot on there, Bill. Opher has done exactly as you say, in this very thread. Opher is the real "denier" here; he's a reality denier. But both of your "sides" do these things, and keep on doing them. That's why I, and people like me, don't vote for politicians, or believe what they tell us. The lesser (or least) of two (or more) evils is still evil.
 
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Oct 12, 2018 - 5:00pm
"The major problem with democracy is that we are always ruled by a minority who impose their narrow dogma on everyone."
 
Is this not true in socialism, Marxism or other anti-capitalist states? Is the EU ruled by a minority that was not directly elected??
John Minehan Added Oct 12, 2018 - 6:07pm
In 2016, "None of the Above" won and has a clear mandate.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 6:37pm
Neil - if I had meant species I would have said species. It is patently obvious that it is not species.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 6:40pm
Well Ken they wouldn't be blatantly obvious to you. The premise you work by is if there's money to be made it's fair game.
But to me destroying the world's rainforest to grow coffee and palm oil is sheer madness and polluting air, sea and land because its cheaper is detestable and stupid.
Doug Plumb Added Oct 12, 2018 - 6:44pm
The politicians are not evil. They have been overpowered by the banks and the banks are evil and have an agenda. The countries went backrupt in '33, except Germany, hence ww2. War is fought for money, its a maxim you can take to the bank.
  The politicians job is to preserve your rights but you have to let them know that you know your rights because you don't have any rights without agency. Showing you have agency is to write to your politician, or speak out in some way about the wrongs that surround us. Not enough people have a good enough liberal education to understand the shift that is taking place, that shift is taking place with your consent.
  The job of the media and mainstream education is too keep everyone confused and dumbed down.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 6:47pm
Bil 
deny, deflect, distract, dismiss, distort, divert, defame, divide, discredit, discount, dulcify, and dismay.
And deny being the operative word! Quite a list of Ds, Destructive, demented and despicable also come to mind.
People that condone the destruction of the wildlife on this planet are beyond contempt. Their excuses are as pathetic as their sources of information.
I'd add blinkered, biased and badly informed - except they start with B.
Or callous, cruel and crazy but they all start with C.
I think the problem lies with a detachment for nature and a lack of empathy. The truth is they don't really care. What happens to the wildlife on this planet is of no consequence to them.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 6:50pm
Ian - I would be in favour of both of those options. Political parties are the source of most of the problems. And curry is a good sauce for sheep.
If people weighed up issues and voted on the facts instead of the party line we might have better government.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:03pm
No Neil - it is not me denying that there is a real problem with global warming - that's you.
It's not me denying the huge percentage of our wildlife that has been slaughtered in the last 40 years - that's you.
It's not me denying that there is wholesale pollution for profit - that's you.
It's not me denying the multinationals and global elite are running amok because they are unchecked - that's you.
It's not me denying that the UN does a lot of good - that's you.
It's not me denying that overpopulation is a major cause of many of our biggest problems - that's you.
It's not me denying that the wealthiest are scamming us all by not paying their taxes - that's you.
I want something done to protect wildlife from profiteering and halt this obnoxious cruelty. I want something done to prevent the global wealthy bastards destroying for profit, exploiting and tax scamming.
I want good education, good health care and good social services for all people.
I think you are burying your head in the sand. You don't kill rhinos but you do buy coffee and palm oil which is wiping out whole communities of animals by destroying habitat  - two thirds of Vietnam's rainforest since the 1970s - same thing happening in Borneo, Brazil, Tasmania and elsewhere. Or is that all propaganda? Your answer to it all is to do away with government and sort everything out in your own village - in other words let the bastards get on with it as long as it isn't in your back yard. Until they want to put a fracking installation next door to you then see how powerful your local government really is.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:04pm
rycK - socialism is based on ownership by the people.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:05pm
John - it would have been far better all round if none of the above had got in.
opher goodwin Added Oct 12, 2018 - 7:06pm
Ken -  The very ones you rail about who are after screwing the planet to make an extra billion bucks or two.
Have you just cottoned on to what I am talking about? They are the very ones I want controlling.
Bill H. Added Oct 12, 2018 - 9:58pm
 
Opher- It's all about the "easy" ride thru life, not having to think or reason, not having to face the negatives of our species existence, and having the most toys when you die.
In other words, what ever doesn't go well, blame it on the other "side".
A simple venture for some.
Doug Plumb Added Oct 13, 2018 - 2:22am
Opher, has there ever been anything on TV that you think is wrong or a lie? Do you have any faults?
opher goodwin Added Oct 13, 2018 - 4:55am
Bill - I know - it's easier if you don't have to think. Buying into a viewpoint, stereotyping everyone so they can be discarded. Saves time. Just believe what you are fed from the sources that agree with you.
Sad really.
I prefer to engage.
opher goodwin Added Oct 13, 2018 - 5:03am
Doug - Two questions:
Answer one - yes there are lots of things on TV that I think are wrong and a deliberate lie. I always look at everything with awareness of the bias and weigh it up. One has to question where all these ideas come from - you know crazy things like the Jews are running the world, the holocaust didn't happen, Europe is going over to Islam, there is no overpopulation, there is no huge environmental catastrophe, there is no climate change. If you know the source you can allow for the bias.
In terms of British TV - the standard is so much higher than that in the US. We get a large number of excellent documentaries and good debates that are largely missing from the States (unless thinks have greatly changed).
It is often quite easy to see where these things come from and why they are being peddled.
As for you second question - yes - like everyone else I have a number of faults. One of which is getting wound up when I see or hear of people deliberately peddling rubbish that have painful consequences for millions of wild animals.
Neil Lock Added Oct 13, 2018 - 6:21am
At the end of the headpost, Opher, you said: What we are increasingly getting is division and hatred. What we desperately need is consensus and compromise!
 
Yet here you are, labelling people with nasty names, and stirring up division and hatred. Not to mention deliberately taking others' views out of context - for example, calling A. Jones an imbecile, when he had responded perfectly rationally to the combination of your two statements "Extinction rates are through the roof" and "Over 50% of invertebrates and vertebrates have been wiped out in the last 40 years."
 
You didn't respond when I pointed out the flaw in a Grauniad article you referenced, that gave the population of wild mammals as only one-ninth of  the human population; when according to unbiased estimates, there are almost as many rats alone as there are humans. You didn't respond when, after you had moved the goalposts in your attempt to discredit A. Jones, I pointed out that killing 50% of "invertebrate and vertebrate" animals would inevitably require killing 50% of ants, as there are so many more of them than any other animal. You didn't provide any evidence to support that claim. But here is some evidence that the population of at least one ant species is not in decline:
https://www.nps.gov/articles/parkscience34-1_32-42_mintzer_3876.htm.
 
For me, this thread has been most instructive. Instead of responding politely with checkable facts from unbiased, or at least reasonably unbiased, sources, you have referenced green propaganda outlets like the Grauniad and the WWF. Then you have accused your opponents here of following "right-wing propaganda masquerading as facts." And you have repeatedly said that I "deny" environmental crises. Whereas in fact I am merely unconvinced these crises exist; partly because of the seeming lack of any attempt at objective proof that they do exist, and partly because all the "proofs" I get directed to are (often easily refutable) statements from green propaganda organizations.
 
You ought to know me well enough by now to know that I don't take kindly to those that try to manipulate me or others with lies or falsehoods, which is just what you have tried to do on this thread. Why should I bother to seek any consensus or compromise with you? You have lost all credibility with me, Opher, and I suspect the same may apply for several others on this thread. And I say that as one who is not, by any credible stretch of the imagination, a "right-winger."
Doug Plumb Added Oct 13, 2018 - 7:56am
re "One has to question where all these ideas come from - you know crazy things like the Jews are running the world, the holocaust didn't happen, Europe is going over to Islam, there is no overpopulation, there is no huge environmental catastrophe, there is no climate change. "
 
You shouldn't believe things just because someone says them, even if they are on TV. You should not believe anything unless given irrefutable evidence. Evidence is NOT an "expert says so". Experts are fallable and corruptable.
  As far as Jews running the world, lots openly admit it. Alan Greenspan tells us the Fed doesn't answer to the gov, but the gov sure answers to the interest rates doesn't it? You can look at writings that predict the future, the Second Global Revolution, The Report From Iron Mountain, The Protocols of Zion, and others. The Protocols explain the modern world and the modern ethic perfectly and they were written over a hundred years ago. People say they were "plagerized" or "stolen" and you should not read them. No one is saying they were wrong, point by point. Lots are showing they were right point by point.
  You can learn Western Jurisprudence and try to figure out how that works with the payment of income tax on wages. Who has license to steal as part of their religion Opher? Who runs the banks, the media, etc.?
Doug Plumb Added Oct 13, 2018 - 8:11am
There has never been a court case about the holocaust (where people left with all their body parts intact at the end) , but questioners get imprisoned. So what does that tell you? Does it tell you you should believe it? Does emotion play the major role in getting people to believe it ? If you question it you are an cold hearted asshole. As adults, we use reason and not emotion in forming our beliefs.
  The very single fact that one person has been arrested and jailed for questioning this should convince you that there are valid questions. People don't get thrown in jail for spreading untruth. Untruth becomes self evident with time, so does truth. Censorship is a refuge of a scoundrel.
opher goodwin Added Oct 13, 2018 - 11:32am
Neil - me and Alex have a lot of history. He never releases posts but has a habit of making rude, snide remarks on my posts. 
In terms of animal populations. I have been involved in many sampling methods for measuring populations and am well aware of the changing in populations that have occurred. In England if you think back to your early years a car journey would splatter your windscreen with bugs. That is no longer the case. Likewise hedgehogs, butterflies and bees were common. They no longer are. As a biologist I am well aware of these changes.  I always look for the toads, frogs, lizards, voles and snakes of my childhood. They are not there,
In other countries this has been even more dramatic. I've walked through jungles in Vietnam which are silent, seen huge swathes of jungle raised and turned into wastelands, seen huge pollution. The statistics explain what I myself as a nature loving biologist am witnessing.
In terms of ants I have no knowledge.
I do not peddle falsehoods and I do get very animated with people who condone the cruelty and destruction that is so obviously going on.
 
opher goodwin Added Oct 13, 2018 - 11:37am
Doug - firstly, as I said, I do not believe everything I see and believe. I like to confirm things with my own eyes.
I have visited a concentration camp and seen the rooms of hair, suitcases, shoes and dentures. I have seen the ovens. I have watched the documentaries, read the accounts, seen the Nazi records, and have no doubt that 6 million Jews and Romanies and disabled and mentally ill were systematically murdered. Anybody who suggests otherwise is a nutcase. I'd lock up people peddling the hatred and racism that goes with denial.
Ward Tipton Added Oct 13, 2018 - 10:22pm
So where do we begin to "restore the environment" so Chicago is under kilometers of ice and those people who lived on what is now the bottom of the English Channel can return home? 
Doug Plumb Added Oct 14, 2018 - 7:46am
re "I'd lock up people peddling the hatred and racism that goes with denial."
 
Of course you would. The man behind the desk at 11 o'clock would too.
Ward Tipton Added Oct 14, 2018 - 8:15am
I think Opher is actually a staunch conservative doing his own parody of the proverbial statist. 
 
He preaches about compromise yet refuses to even acknowledge attempts to compromise. 
 
He cherry picks which points he will even discuss, completely dismissing any that do not fit his narrative. 
 
He preaches pacifist ideology while admitting he would like to shove large chunks of concrete up the posterior (or buttocks) of those whom he does not approve of. 
 
Just too perfect and too easy ... I think he is just putting us all on. 
opher goodwin Added Oct 14, 2018 - 12:45pm
Ward - no mid-glacial would be good. Keeping it to the temperatures that civilisation developed in.
Too cold and we are frozen.
Too warm and we are drowned.
Temperate is just nice.
I remember my three bears.
opher goodwin Added Oct 14, 2018 - 12:49pm
Ward - I'm quite happy to do my share of compromise. When do we start?
Which points do you think I'm ducking? I try to be comprehensive in the time available.
Can't recall saying I'd like to kill anyone or give them a concrete enema.
It could be perfect and easy - unfortunately it isn't.
opher goodwin Added Oct 14, 2018 - 12:50pm
Doug - I'm intolerant of racism, violence and hatred. I make no apologies.
A. Jones Added Oct 14, 2018 - 7:56pm
I do not peddle falsehoods
 
Yes, you do. You peddle lots of falsehood, and you do so all the time.
 
You're just too fat-headed, egotistical, arrogant, and ignorant to realize it.
opher goodwin Added Oct 15, 2018 - 8:15am
Thank you Alex - both eloquent and stupid as usual.
Ward Tipton Added Oct 16, 2018 - 8:10am
Opher
"Ward - I'm quite happy to do my share of compromise. When do we start?
 
I have already laid out plans for community developments, or at least the introductions to them. Citizen Accountability of the Governance is both mandatory and enforceable. The question is how do we get funded when the UN and others do not want solutions, but to keep the vast majority of the world impoverished ... if not kill it off entirely. I have both raging leftists and rightists and those of us that don't like either jackboot crushing down on the team. 

Which points do you think I'm ducking? I try to be comprehensive in the time available.
 
When I reply with many points, climate change for instance, you select one to respond to and ignore the many that demonstrate scientific realities ... such as the parallel warming on Mars as one example.

Can't recall saying I'd like to kill anyone or give them a concrete enema.
 
The conversation was regarding a star on the "Walk of Fame" in "Hollyweird" ... a much overrated aberration in my humble opinion ... though while discussing your pacifist views, you also expressed a desire to take the star belonging to Trump and insert it ... uncomfortably ... up his arse? I do not know that it would be a concrete enema, but it would certainly be a pain in the arse. 
 
It could be perfect and easy - unfortunately it isn't."
 
Life is never perfect or easy. Like it or not, life is not always about compromise either, though it can be truly amazing how much can be accomplished when actual compromise occurs. 
 
Back to my team, you do remind me of one of the other Statists on my team now that you mention it ... He has drawn up some of the most amazing theories and principles for bringing people with different ideologies down to the table to talk together ... yet he is not allowed at the table because he demands everyone see it his way or he will leave. This does nothing to invalidate his work mind you, but does make it very detrimental to allow him to sit down at the bargaining table. 
The Burghal Hidage Added Oct 16, 2018 - 10:45am
Nah Ward......Opher is old school Labour Party. Its the Labour manifesto or bust.
In a couple of these threads of a political nature (this being one of several) I have been accused of being angry. I'm not angry at all...in fact in the current state I am rather amused. What may present in the eyes of some as anger is in fact a frustration. A frustration that people who are otherwise of at least a reasonable degree of intelligence are so emotionally invested in a party or party identity that they will cast logic aside before re-examining their positions and at least considering that perhaps they have been misled.
 
I dont agree with much of Opher's politics. We find some common ground, but in this category it's rather little. He believes what he believes and that is OK.....he's entitled to be wrong if he chooses :) What I am having particular difficulty with right now are those people who will still insist on supporting a party or a collection of politicos who are incontrovertibly proven criminals. Those on the right side of the political spectrum are usually very quick to divorce themselves from the kook fringe of their wing. In fact liberals, especially the media types, are very quick to praise these when they do. But on the left? No....it's double down, gimme more o' that! The daily flood of projection demonstrated by these people is actually sad.  It evokes the sort of feelings one may get when watching  the schizophrenic off their meds, wandering in the street and swatting at their imaginary tormentors: you know that they really do see the hallucinations, while still realizing that they are not actually there.
 
If you're liberal be a liberal. Fine. I dont have to agree, but damn it be consistent and don't discredit yourself or your ideology by co-signing criminality. How any woman can with a straight face say that they support Hillary because she is a woman? The woman who tells us that all accusers should be believed?  Kathleen Willey, Juanita Broderick, Paula Jones, who else? There is more. 
 
Hillary is even worse than a misogynist. She is an enabler. Any of you who still insist on hitching your wagon to the Clintons or any of their ilk have finally plunged to new depths. I guess you're prepared to remain bottom dwellers rather than rethink your script. I expect this from dumb youth. It's very disappointing to observe in alleged adults
George N Romey Added Oct 16, 2018 - 1:19pm
I find it interesting (and comical) they will claim Bill Clinton was railroaded by all those women. There wasn't enough evidence.  It was consensual.  Then we got to this guy Kavanaugh and surely he must be guilty because no woman would lie over a matter like this. 
 
HRC is far worse than Trump but people are so stupid they are conned by the facade.  Its that ability to lie so easily that makes her so dangerous.  
rycK the JFK Democrat Added Oct 16, 2018 - 4:52pm
George
 
"Then we got to this guy Kavanaugh and surely he must be guilty because no woman would lie over a matter like this. "
 
She already lied about her claustrophobia and truth testing by instruments. 
 
I think she is little more than a leftist mattress with a few mental problems. We should review her med list and her lovers in the past decades. She is a mental wreck and dips her head to telegraph she is lying. 
 
Leftist cadre with tears. 
 
 
opher goodwin Added Oct 19, 2018 - 11:40am
Burger - I think you've misunderstood. There are very few politicians that I have any great faith in - Tony Benn, Jeremy Corbyn are two. They are flawed but they at least are consistent and speak from the heart from an inner conviction and I agree with most of their policies.
As for Hilary Clinton - she is flawed - the Democrats could have found a much better candidate. I would have supported Bernie any day. But HC was at least far better than DT.
Obviously women accusers should not be believed - they should be listened to with respect and treated seriously and their complaints investigated thoroughly. Something that hasn't happened in the past. Unfortunately some do lie and make things up but the statistics show that most are genuine.